US Senator Bill Cassidy (00:01):
Now I agree with Secretary Kennedy that HHS needs reform. Over the past several years, I've engaged stakeholders and worked with colleagues to identify opportunities to modernize a wide array of HHS agencies and programs. The department needs to have an effective plan to fulfill statutory duties in tandem with efforts to increase transparency, accountability, to streamline programs, and to root out wasteful spending. Congress and the administration should work together to ensure reforms strike the right balance and deliver for all Americans.
(00:35)
Mr. Secretary, once more, no one can set the record straight better than you to explain how the department will maintain its critical duties and implement change important to Americans health. By providing this clarity, we in Congress will be able to advocate for shared priorities in future legislation. And you'll gain the trust of the American people putting their minds at ease. I appreciate you being here. I look forward to hearing how the proposed HHS budget will advance President Trump's mission. And with that, I recognize Senator Sanders for his opening statement.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (01:09):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Secretary, thanks for being with us. Let me begin by quoting a sentence that came from your prepared remarks. You state and I quote, "the United States remains the sickest developed nation, and we spend 4. 5 trillion annually on healthcare, two to three times more per capita than comparable nations. Clearly, something is structurally wrong with our approach." You're right. The current healthcare system is broken. It is wildly expensive, it is dysfunctional.
(01:53)
So what do we do, Mr. Secretary, to address it? Maybe for a start, we do what every other major country on Earth does, and recognize that healthcare is a human right, guaranteed to every man, woman, and child. Maybe we understand that the function of a rational healthcare system is not to make hundreds of billions of dollars in profit for insurance companies and drug companies who often engage in stock buybacks, pay their CEOs outrageous compensation packages. There was a guy from one of the major drug companies sitting exactly where you are sitting last year, a guy makes $50 million a year. Meanwhile, we don't have enough doctors, we don't have enough nurses, we don't have enough dentists, we don't have enough pharmacists, we don't have enough healthcare workers in general. You are right, the system is structurally broken. We spend far more, we have a shorter life expectancy than other countries. So this is an issue that I want to address with you. How in fact do we guarantee healthcare to all people and do it in an effective way?
(03:20)
Let me say a word about prescription drugs. You and President Trump had a press conference earlier this week discussing an executive order that both of you claimed would make sure that the American people pay the lowest prices in the world for prescription drugs, not the highest. As you mentioned at your press conference. This is a concept that I personally strongly support, and I think you are aware of that. But as President Trump, and you should know. This executive order like Trump's previous executive orders on the subject will likely be thrown out by the courts and we will be back to exactly where we are today, paying by far the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs.
(04:09)
In my view, the way forward is through legislative action. So if you and President Trump are serious about significantly lowering the outrageous price of prescription drugs in this country, as I hope you are, I would very much appreciate both of you working with me and other people on this committee and in the Senate on legislation that I will soon be introducing, which accomplishes exactly the same goal as you and the president talked about, making sure that we pay no more for prescription drugs than people in other major countries. So if we are serious about that, let's work together and let's make that happen. And in fact, if Republicans and Democrats come together on this, if we prioritize it, we can pass that legislation in a couple of weeks.
(05:02)
Thirdly, Secretary Kennedy, all of us want to make the government more efficient and cost-effective and fewer than I, that there is too much bureaucracy. But let me tell you also what we want and what the American people want. And that is we want the federal government to play a major role in continuing its efforts to combat such terrible diseases as cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, heart disease, and other terrible illnesses that claim the lives of millions of Americans. In that regard, I must tell you that I have heard from citizens, patients, and doctors in Vermont and all over this country who are deeply concerned that under the leadership of you and Mr. Musk, the Trump administration has terminated at least $13.5 billion in healthcare funding, including more than 1600 grants to conduct vital research into cancer prevention, Alzheimer's diabetes, and cardiovascular disease, among many other medical research investments.
(06:05)
In the first three months of this year, the National Institute of Health has been effectively cut by 2.7 billion, a 35% cut reversing over a decade of investment in medical research. Under your leadership, cancer research has been slashed by 31%. Further, secretary Kennedy, under your leadership, you have undermined the vital role of vaccines play in preventing disease during the single largest measles outbreak in 25 years, which has led to over a thousand cases of measles, over 125 hospitalizations and three deaths. And let me say a word about USAID, Elon Musk, the richest man on earth who has led the effort to cut health and nutrition programs for the poorest people on earth has absurdly suggested that no one, no one has died from the massive cuts to USAID, Mr. Musk is 100% wrong. According to independent researchers, nearly 200,000 people have already died throughout the world as a result of the massive cuts in funding to prevent malaria, tuberculosis, HIV, malnutrition, and other serious diseases. Further, as a result of the elimination of US funding for a global vaccine program, it has been estimated that over a million children will die because of the cuts that will save taxpayers very, very little money.
(07:35)
So let me just conclude by saying this, the United States of America is the wealthiest country on earth. We should have the best healthcare system in the world, not one of the worst. Given our purchasing power, we should be paying the lowest prices on Earth for prescription drugs, not the highest. Instead of giving hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the richest people in this country, we should be proudly investing in coming up with cures for cancer, Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, and other terrible illnesses. That is what we should be doing, but I am afraid that in too many ways we are doing exactly the opposite. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (08:20):
Thank you, Senator Sanders. I'll now introduce the witness. We're joined today by the Honorable Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The 26th Secretary of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, and his role as secretary. Mr. Kennedy is responsible for overseeing the nation's civilian federal health agencies, which serve over 150 million Americans. We look forward to hearing from you today. Secretary Kennedy, again, thank you for joining us.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (08:51):
[inaudible 00:08:45]. And thank you Senator Sanders. I just want to begin by saying I know how determined President Trump is for us to have the lowest drug prices in the world, as between Europe and the United States, and I also know that he doesn't care how we get there. That's where he wants Americans to be. And he said, I don't know how many times since you know I've been involved with him, but that we shouldn't be paying or be able to go to London and buy GLP for $88 that in this country cost us $1,300. And I know it's something that you've been talking about for many years. I look forward to working with you-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (09:34):
Thank you.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (09:35):
On the legislation or any way that we can to get there. Thank you. Chairman Cassidy and Senator Sanders, I'm honored to be before you today to present the Department of Health and Human Services. Fiscal year 2026, budget debilitating disease, contaminated food, toxic environments, addiction and mental illness affect Americans across every race, class, and political belief. When my team and I took the helm at HHS, we set out with clear goals. First, we aim to make America healthy again with a special focus on the chronic disease epidemic. Second, we committed to delivering more efficient, responsive, and effective service to over 100 million Americans who rely on Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs. Third, we focus on achieving these goals by cutting costs for taxpayers. We intend to do more, a lot more with less. The budget I'm presenting today supports these goals and reflects them-
Speaker X (10:41):
[inaudible 00:10:42].
US Senator Bill Cassidy (10:52):
The witness will suspend, the committee will come to order. Capitol Police are asked to remove the individuals from the hearing room. Members of the audience are reminded Disruptions will not be tolerated.
Speaker X (11:12):
RFK kills people with AIDS.
(11:13)
Congress pays for bomb to kill [inaudible 00:11:13].
US Senator Bill Cassidy (11:15):
Members of the audience are reminded Disruptions will not be permitted while the committee conducts its business. Capitol Police are asked to remove the individuals from the hearing room. That was a made-for-C-SPAN moment. The secretary will resume. Mr. Secretary, let's get the doors closed and the ruckus just to totally clear. Got it. Okay. And we thank the Capitol Police for working with due diligence. Thank you very much. Mr. Secretary, please resume.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (12:10):
The budget-
US Senator Bill Cassidy (12:11):
Mr. Secretary. Will you reset the clock? The clock's been running. Whatever it would be. Okay, please.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (12:23):
All right. The budget I'm presenting today supports those goals and reflects two enduring American values, compassion, and responsibility. I invite the committee to unite around these ideals with me. The United States remains the sickest developed nation in the world and we spend $4.5 trillion annually on healthcare, two to three times more per capita than comparable nations. Clearly, something is structurally and systemically wrong with this system. Furthermore, healthcare costs are steadily increasing at a rate of 2% greater than the economy. If we don't staunch this unsustainable hemorrhage, we will ransom our children to bankruptcy, servitude and disastrous health consequences. Yes, an exploding debt is a social determinant of health. We won't solve this problem by throwing more money at it. We must spend smarter. We will shift funding away from bureaucracy and toward direct impact. Some things at HHS will not change. We will preserve legacy programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and Head Start. As the foundation of the MAHA agenda. Vulnerable populations, seniors and veterans deserve consistent access to care and I will ensure that they receive it.
(13:51)
Today, 83 million Americans, urban and rural lack adequate access to primary care physicians. We will prioritize these families, especially Native American and Alaskan communities. We will protect IHS funding, streamline its operations and give the tribes more autonomy in managing their resources. Let me be clear. We intend to make the Trump HHS not just the most effective, but also the most compassionate in US history. Our official budget statement outlines many priorities, but I want to highlight a few.
(14:28)
First, we will consolidate programs to better tackle mental health and addiction. These issues now rival chronic disease in their impact. The HHS will aggressively combat the opioid crisis, especially the spread of synthetic drugs like fentanyl. We will empower state, local and tribal leaders to create effective solutions. Second, we will address nutrition, physical activity and healthy lifestyles. The president's budget requests 94 billion in discretionary funds to support these priorities, including the administration for a Healthy America. We will emphasize healthy eating and headstart and ensure the program continues to serve. Its 750,000 children and parents effectively. Third, we will equip FDA to expand its food safety efforts through research, regulation, inspection, and education to remove harmful chemicals from food and packaging. Fourth, we will find cutting-edge research at NIH while cutting risky or non-essential studies that includes ending gain-of-function, experiments and research based upon radical gender ideologies. At the CDC, we will return to core missions tracking disease, investigating outbreaks, and sustaining public health infrastructure while cutting waste. Fifth, we will eliminate DEI funding and redirect resources toward real poverty reduction. We will move beyond lip service to communities of color and take meaningful action to meet their needs. Six. We will strengthen cybersecurity and health IT. The AI revolution has arrived and we are already using new technology to manage health data more efficiently and securely.
(16:25)
Finally, we will rebuild public trust, a trust that eroded through years of industry capture corruption, waste, and misplaced priorities. We will launch a new era of transparency and public service, creating an honest science-driven HHS that answers to the President to Congress and to the American people. I look forward to working with Congress to pursue this mission together as a bipartisan cause. Let's work side by side to make America healthy again. Thank you.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (17:00):
Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I'll start with questions. Mr. Secretary, I appreciate that NIH wants to recalibrate its research portfolio to address conditions not previously attempted to sufficiently nutrition conditions such as a rise after viral infection like myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome. But this is happening in tandem with reports that HHS is closing the office for long COVID research and practice. And I talked to people for whom long COVID is seriously impacting their life. So to what extent will HHS continue to support research, data collection and other programs focused on understanding ongoing health impacts of long COVID?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (17:49):
Senator, I am a hundred percent committed to finding treatments for long COVID. I am deeply involved in that. Personally. I have a son who is really dramatically affected by long COVID. I have many, many friends who are affected by that and by Lyme disease incidentally, which is also a priority. The COVID office was cut by an executive order from The White House. But we have, where everybody at NIH and at CDC is committed to these kind of studies. And I can tell you personally, I will make sure that they happen.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (18:32):
Thank you. The NIH is the largest public funder of biomedical research in the world, giving us an edge over countries like China with whom we are obviously a geopolitical rival, but it takes a long time to develop this. And the rising prevalence of neurodegenerative disease is one area in which we have an impending crisis if we don't support the research and advanced cures. And my concern, and now I'll speak as a guy from Louisiana, if NIH funding is substantially reduced, they have folks at my universities at Tulane and LSU, who are doing work on these sorts of things. So knowing that the NIH budget is getting squeezed and the indirect costs, likewise, how will the NIH successfully do more with less? How will we build those new scientists to find these cures and to compete with geopolitical rivals?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (19:25):
Well, for one thing, Senator Cassidy, you're talking about neurodegenerative disease now-
US Senator Bill Cassidy (19:31):
For example, ALS or Alzheimer's.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (19:33):
Als, right? The Chinese are not spending a lot of money on DEI. And we are cutting those studies. We're cutting studies on gain-of-function studies and we're cutting grants to foreign scientists from adversarial countries and particularly the Chinese which have the Thousand Talents Program, which is openly trying to exploit US research and take our IP. We spend more than any country in the world on biomedical research. NIH controls about 70% of the global funding for biomedical research. The cuts we have made to date are administrative cuts. As far as I know, we have not fired any working scientists, the working scientists, the people who are actually doing science. There are some people who are scientists that were doing it or administration, who did lose their jobs. In terms of working scientists, our policy was to make sure none of them were lost. And that research continues.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (20:54):
Thank you. Let me ask you, the budget proposes to eliminate several large block grants for hospital and health department emergency preparedness and other core public health capabilities explaining states are better equipped to fund these activities. Now I agree that frontline public health happens at the local level, but what works well in Louisiana may not work well in a state like New York. But rural under-resourced states especially rely upon federal funding to support public health. How do you propose we balance competing interests, returning power to states because there is a difference in how different states do it, but replace the funding necessary to combat these public health problems?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (21:43):
I think it's a balance, Mr. Chairman. And we have a legal obligation, CDC has a legal obligation to do national pandemic response and we will meet that obligation. And in fact, we are going to improve it, and particularly, if we can get support from this body to refund reappropriate the pop-up, which is critical for our pandemic response. But there are some functions that are local in nature and in those cases we will be supporting local infrastructure to respond. They know better than we know. And we saw this during some of the hurricane response with Governor DeSantis response, which was really Florida localized. There was no deaths and very little destruction to a hurricane that was as bad as the one that followed, that relied on federal response and was really a catastrophe for the state. So I think experience shows that the localities can often do better with some functions, and particularly with the hospitals and infrastructure, but we are not relinquishing our responsibility at CDC to manage national emergencies.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (23:05):
Thank you. Senator Sanders.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (23:08):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me stop going back to prescription drugs. Mr. Secretary, did I hear you correctly to state that your goal is to have Americans pay the lowest prices in the world or equivalent to what is paid in other major countries? That is my goal that you are prepared to work with us on legislation to achieve that goal?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (23:31):
Absolutely.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (23:32):
All right. And I believe there's bipartisan support for it. I believe that if the leadership here prioritizes that we can do that in a very short period of time. Look forward to that.
(23:43)
Let me ask you this as Secretary of HHS, we have in America today some 85 million Americans who are uninsured or underinsured. We spend more per capita as you've indicated, than any other country. Is healthcare a human right? Are we making America healthy when so many people cannot afford to go to a doctor when 68,000 people a year die because they don't get to a doctor when they should? Is healthcare a human right? Will you work with us to guarantee healthcare to every man, woman and child in America?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (24:18):
Well, I think you're asking two different questions. You're asking a philosophical question about whether it is a human right, like a constitutional right. As an attorney, I would say that it's not a right of a kind that we otherwise enshrine in the constitution, because healthcare costs your neighbor money. If I smoke cigarettes for 20 years, I make that choice, which is my choice-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (24:49):
I don't have a lot of time, so I just am here.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (24:53):
If you're asking me a philosophical question, I got to give you a thoughtful answer.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (24:57):
Within 30 seconds. It's a problem.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (25:02):
It's not like freedom of speech, which costs everybody-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (25:05):
but every other country, Mr. Secretary, every other country guarantees healthcare to all people as a right. Should we as Americans?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (25:13):
the objective is to get Americans the level of healthcare that they want, the choice which Americans want. Americans want-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (25:24):
They don't want the choice to be uninsured.
(25:26)
They don't want the choice to die because they don't get to a doctor on time.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (25:30):
Americans prefer private insurance to other insurance sources.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (25:36):
Do you believe? Okay.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (25:37):
And what I would say is I want to find a solution to this. I want every American to have insurance. President Trump wants every American to be insured and have access to healthcare. The question is how do we get there? Obamacare is not working. It is not working. And this is the-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (25:55):
Are we? Okay. Sorry to interrupt you. All right. The reconciliation-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (26:00):
My job is to try to make it work.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (26:03):
All right. I have limited time. The reconciliation bill that is now being worked on in the House will come to the Senate as it stands right now, cuts Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act by more than $715 billion, which the CBO has estimated would eliminate health insurance for 13.7 million Americans and also raise co-payments for millions of others is throwing 13 million Americans off of the healthcare they have, poor and working-class people, keeping America healthy?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (26:38):
Well, I haven't seen that number. I've seen the number 8 million and here are the people. The cuts are not true cuts. The cuts are eliminations of waste, abuse and fraud. And I can go through the people who will lose it. A million people, there are a million.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (27:00):
Mr. Secretary, I really I don't mean to be rude, but as you know, I have a very limited amount of time.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (27:03):
You asked the question, I'm going to answer it.
US Senator Bernie Sanders (27:04):
Well, yeah, I've got a bunch of questions that I would like you to answer as well. All right. We talk about austerity doing more with less, but in that very same bill that is being worked on in the House right now, there are 235 billion in tax breaks for the top two-tenths of 1%. Do you think that makes sense when that same bill would throw 13 million people off of Medicaid? Should we give tax breaks to billionaires and throw kids and others off of Medicaid?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (27:41):
You're conflating the congressional bills with proposals from the president. The president is not making-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (27:49):
I'm talking about the congressional bill. I'm talking about the bill, the reconciliation bill.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (27:54):
I mean, the president is not trying to do tax cuts for billionaires. He's trying to have no tax on tips and no tax-
US Senator Bernie Sanders (28:01):
$235 billion through the estate tax.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (28:04):
how many billionaires do you know that are making overtime or making any part of their money on tips?
US Senator Bernie Sanders (28:11):
235 billion. Look, it's a big bill. There are a lot of provisions in it, but you cannot deny it. The top two-tenths of 1% will get 235 billion in tax breaks while we cut Medicaid.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (28:23):
Okay. Senator Paul.
US Senator Rand Paul (28:25):
Thank you. I want to commend Secretary Kennedy and the administration for putting forward less spending. And one of the reasons I think we need to look at NIH and other grant-making organizations is if you keep giving them the same amount, you'll keep getting the same frivolous grants. And I'll recite a couple of them so people can remember. 660,000 was given to study the impact of microaggressions on obesity-related eating in Latinx Americans. Really? Maybe heart disease, diabetes, obesity, but eating disorders in Latinx Americans. Here's another one, 419,000 to study if lonely rats seek cocaine more than happy rats, maybe we could eliminate that and that could go to a real disease. Most recently NIH recorded a 620,000 grant for LGBTQ+ inclusive teen pregnancy prevention program for transgender boys. And what they discovered was that girls who think they're boys are at least as likely to get pregnant as girls who think they're girls. Amazing, the science. But we should all agree that that's just left-wing ideology. That's not science. We should study obesity and cancer and diabetes. I commend you for shifting the balance.
(29:42)
I have a specific question about closing down Fort Detrick recently. My understanding is that a contractor intentionally slashed the hazmat suit or the biosafety suit of someone who's handling Ebola. You were immediately attacked in the press by
US Senator Rand Paul (30:00):
Of saying it was just anti-science, once it ended shutting down science, was this a serious breach and is it being investigated?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (30:08):
We brought in the FBI to investigate it. As you say, it appears like it was deliberate criminal act. That was a kind that is equivalent to attempted murder because the kind of microbe, the pathogens that they were handling have a very, very high case fatality rate up to 50%. The disturbing thing about it is that there are three leaks a week globally from BSL-4 labs, and any of those could be cataclysmic for humanity, and as a result, we not only closed Fort Detrick and we brought the FBI in to investigate that, we also declared the end of gain-of-function studies that will allow those kinds of leaks to continue.
US Senator Rand Paul (30:59):
I commend you for that. I think ultimately legislation will be needed because the next administration could reverse it. I think there is bipartisan support for some controls on gain-of-function. As you shut down gain-of-function though, you have to decide what it is and then you have to look for it. I would suggest that it both Fort Detrick and at the NBACC lab that's nearby, run by the DHS, that we look at experiments involving Ebola, avian flu, Marburg virus to determine, one, where they gain their function, but also to just determine whether the experiments are wise.
(31:31)
I am told, in public records, that they're doing experiments or have done experience to aerosolize Ebola at the NBACC lab, that's the DHS lab, DHS lab nearby to Fort Detrick. My hope is that when you investigate whether to do gain-of-function or what is gain-of-function, what is being done, that you'll compile that and at least give us a report in Congress and we're going to ask for it, so there can be public scrutiny of these things. You will help to scrutinize it, but the whole public needs to know how dangerous some of these things are and whether we should be doing them. The idea of aerosolizing Ebola, I think is, and or training Ebola to be aerosolized is as incredibly dangerous, probably goes against the Biological Weapons Convention, and I'd like to hear a little bit about whether or not as you investigate this, you plan on bringing information back to Congress or to the public?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (32:24):
Yeah, we're going to be absolutely transparent. I have a trip planned to Fort Detrick with Kristi Noem, director of DHS, and with Jay Bhattacharya and other people in my agency who are experts on bioweapons, who are experts on gain-of-function research and we are going to be absolutely transparent. We've also proposed a methodology for regulating and for determining what is dangerous gain-of-function and what is legitimate scientific investigation and how to bring the public into that debate, which I think as you point out is absolutely critical. That is where we messed up last time, and as you know, we have some of the Democrats here who are talking about the great signs from NIH, but now we have a major agency, intelligence agency, the CIA, the FBI, the DOE, and the State Department have all agreed that NIH research almost certainly led to the pandemic, the Covid pandemic. That's not the kind of the result that we should be allowing or enabling, and we're going to end that now.
US Senator Rand Paul (33:42):
If possible, the trip to Fort Detrick and to NBACC, we'd like to be included or invited on that trip, if possible.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (33:48):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Senator Murray.
Senator Murray (33:51):
Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, one of my constituents, her name is Natalie Phelps. She's a mom of two from Bainbridge Island in Washington State. She has been fighting aggressive stage IV colorectal cancer for nearly five years now. Her best hope now is a clinical trial she's participating in at the NIH Clinical Center. She flew out to NIH a few weeks ago for her first appointment, and her care team there wanted her to come back in four weeks to start treatment, but because of the thoughtless mass firing of thousands of critical employees across NIH and HHS that you carried out, Natalie's doctors at that clinical center have told her they have no choice but to delay her treatment by an additional four weeks. Now, an extra four weeks may not sound like a long time, but I will tell you, for stage IV cancer patients like Natalie, this could mean the difference between life and death. Secretary Kennedy, how many staff have been cut from the NIH's Clinical Center? I want a specific number.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (35:03):
I can't tell you that now, Senator Murray. What I can tell you is that if you contact my office tomorrow, I'll look specifically into that.
Senator Murray (35:11):
Well, that is not acceptable. I want an answer back by that, she deserves it, I do it. She doesn't have much time, she deserves an answer back.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (35:20):
Wouldn't you rather get her into that clinical trial as fast as you can?
Senator Murray (35:24):
Absolutely.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (35:26):
If you contact my office tomorrow, this is a-
Senator Murray (35:29):
You are here to defend your budget. I'm here to ask you questions about the impact of that.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (35:36):
Well, you asked me about a specific case that I want to help with.
Senator Murray (35:40):
Correct. I'm happy to-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (35:43):
I don't think that should happen to anybody.
Senator Murray (35:45):
Okay, well what have you, and I mean you personally done to assess how those staff cuts are impacting patient care? She is one of many. What have you done to assess that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (35:56):
I provided the guidelines that said no clinical trials should be affected by the cuts. I have-
Senator Murray (36:07):
Mr. Secretary, I just have a short amount of time. They are impacting clinical trials.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:17):
You asked me a question, do you want me to answer it?
Senator Murray (36:17):
I want to tell you, you need to know this. You're here to defend the NIH budget, which-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:20):
Senator, do you want me to answer your question?
Senator Murray (36:22):
Well, I wanted-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:22):
Do you want me to answer your question?
Senator Murray (36:23):
I tell you that Natalie is sitting there waiting for treatment, and you are here to-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:32):
I'm offering help, but you don't care.
Senator Murray (36:32):
Mr. Secretary-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:32):
You don't care about Natalie.
Senator Murray (36:32):
I reclaim my-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:32):
I've offered to help Natalie.
Senator Murray (36:34):
I am asking you a question and it is critical. You are here to defend cutting NIH by half. Do you genuinely believe that that won't result in more stories like Natalie's?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (36:47):
I think the cuts that are now proposed by NIH are going to hurt. I think that President Trump… Listen, there's no agency had in the government, like myself, that wants to see their budget cut.
Senator Murray (37:04):
Well, and I asked you have you personally assessed what this is doing to patients? I'm telling you one story of one person, it is impacting life or death situation. I think it's-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (37:15):
Do you want me to answer your question, Senator?
Senator Murray (37:16):
Well, you did.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (37:18):
You have not allowed me to answer it.
Senator Murray (37:21):
Well, I will just say that it is my job to be a voice for people like Natalie and countless other patients who are like her, so you've got to fix this. I want to know and I want a personal update on Natalie's case, and you offered that. Please give that to me in the next 24 hours, and I expect details and transparency about the state of NIH clinical care.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (37:44):
You contact my office, Senator.
Senator Murray (37:46):
I think you could contact my office as well.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (37:47):
I will do everything in my power to try to get Natalie into that.
Senator Murray (37:52):
I got one minute left and I want to ask you about the NIOSH cuts. I'm really alarmed by your decision to essentially eliminate the National Institutes for Occupational Safety and Health. You've already fired nearly 90% of the staff. That includes the staff in my state at the Spokane Research Lab. Those were experts, they do essential work to protect miners and firefighters and farm workers, people who work in dangerous conditions. I am told that after backlash, you are reinstating some of those, mainly in the Western Virginia office, but nobody in the Western United States and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to how you've made these decisions. How do you explain this to my constituents in Spokane who are out of a job and the workers that are being impacted by that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (38:39):
The work in NIOSH will not be interrupted. I've brought back 328 workers mainly in the Cleveland office and the Morgantown office and for the World Trade Center site, and that work will continue. The work on mine safety will continue. The epicenter of that work has been Cleveland and it's been Morgantown. We understand it's a critically important function and I did not want to see it end.
Senator Murray (39:07):
Mr. Chairman, I would just say you can't fire 90% of the people and assume the work gets done.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Senator Collins.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, nearly seven million Americans are living with Alzheimer's disease, and caring for people with this devastating chronic disease caused us some 360 billion a year. I am the author of a law that's known as the BOLD Act. It takes a public health approach to Alzheimer's, it educates providers, promotes earlier diagnosis, it helps caregivers and it also promotes lifestyle changes.
(39:59)
I have worked very hard to make sure that HHS has the resources to carry out this law, which was just recently extended. I'm concerned that the reductions in force of approximately 10,000 staff across HHS will completely undermine this act. This act in many ways is very consistent with your approach of looking at public health issues for chronic diseases. For example, the Healthy Aging Branch administers the BOLD Act before Alzheimer's, it has lost all of its staff, so how can you ensure that the CDC continues to implement the BOLD Act and the Alzheimer's programs under it when all of the staff responsible for that administration have either been placed on administrative leave or let go?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (41:07):
I don't know enough about that program, but I know that that division has been folded into the Agency for a Healthy America, and a lot of the reports, that whole divisions have been liquidated were just wrong. They were divisions that were being reassigned under the RE-ORG. Now, I'm under a constraint here because at four o'clock yesterday afternoon, we were told that a federal judge granted a TRO in our case on the RE-ORG, and my attorneys have asked me not to talk about any details of the RE-ORG today. On that budget line, I will work with you, I'm committed.
(42:06)
Alzheimer's is running in my family as you know. You know my cousin Maria Shriver who's deeply involved in it. The NIH had a very, very checkered history on studying Alzheimer's because of the amyloid plaque scandal. We have an opportunity now to do really good science and find a cure very quickly and also find out, equally importantly, why so many people are getting Alzheimer's in this generation. I want to make that happen. I want to work with you, Senator, to make sure that that happens, and that those programs continue.
Speaker 4 (42:45):
Thank you. I chaired recently the first appropriations' committee hearing of the year and we focused on biomedical research and how important it is that America not lose its global edge in innovation that's producing lifesaving and life-enhancing discoveries. As among the many issues that we covered, as you might expect, the hearing explored the 15% arbitrary, one size fits all percent cap that NIH has imposed on indirect but still research-related costs for its grants.
(43:28)
What we heard is that this cap will mean less basic research, fewer clinical trials, and that it will also cause our scientists and researchers to leave the United States and go to other countries. I believe strongly that this proposed cap is poorly thought out, that it's harmful and I know that it violates current law because since 2018 we've been included in the appropriations bill specific language that prevents NIH from imposing such a cap. I know the system needs to be looked at, but are you reviewing how NIH's approach of this one size fits all, 15% cap on indirect costs would affect laboratories whether they're private nonprofit labs or whether they're in universities, as far as doing crucial biomedical research?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (44:40):
Senator we are, and you and I have talked about this issue and I think the impetus for the cap was that there were a lot of private universities with giant endowments like Stanford and Harvard that were getting indirect payments of 78, 70, 78%. What that means, if you get a million dollar grant, NIH then has to pay you an extra $780,000 or administrative costs, and a lot of those costs weren't even going to anything to do with science, they were going to the university budget.
(45:19)
In order to curb that abuse, we adopted a 15%, which is the industry standard, that's what the Gates Foundation or any other foundation would pay. I understand University of Maine, University of Alabama, many other universities, state universities were not abusing it. We lost about nine billion a year in those kinds of costs. We have a plan for how to address issues like what's happening at the University of Maine not being gaveled out, so I will talk to you privately about that.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Senator Baldwin.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Thank you Mr. Chairman. Secretary Kennedy, you run a department that touches the lives of almost every American, yet for this budget hearing, these are the six pages that we have gotten in terms of your budget request. We are also seven and a half months into this fiscal year, and yet you are not telling the American public anything about how you are spending the billions in taxpayer dollars right now.
(46:35)
You had to submit an operating plan to the Congress. This is just a sample page, but 530 programs simply have asterisks. Secretary Kennedy, this isn't about your hiding information from me, this is about your hiding information from the American public, and if you're going to cut cancer research or gut mental health support, at least stand by your work and explain it to the American people. Now, Secretary Kennedy, I want to start with what I hope is an easy question for you. Do you think lead poisoning in children is a significant concern?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (47:20):
Is lead poisoning-
Speaker 2 (47:23):
In children, a significant concern?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (47:25):
It's a extremely significant concern.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Thank you, then I would like to know why your department has effectively shut down the very program to address lead poisoning in children. The city of Milwaukee requested assistance from the CDC to help the city respond to lead poisoning cases tied to public schools. Six schools have been closed, displacing more than 1800 schoolchildren. The request for federal assistance was denied because of lack of staff. The entire childhood lead poisoning branch has been fired. In the words of a Milwaukee mom, it really sends a message of, you don't matter. I don't know what you would say to parents who must now test their children for lead and deal with school closures, but do you intend to eliminate this branch at CDC? Yes or no?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (48:26):
No, we do not.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Okay, because you cannot tell us that you want to make America healthy again when you are willfully destroying programs that keep children safe and healthy from lead poisoning. Congress dedicated $51 million in funding for this particular program, but when a community asks for help to prevent lifelong complications for children, and there was no one there to pick up the phone, and it's not because this program is ineffective, it's because you fired the entire team whose job it is to support communities like Milwaukee.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (49:10):
If that money has been appropriated, we will spend that money. If it's been appropriated to Milwaukee, we will spend it in Milwaukee. I've spent a lot of time in Milwaukee working on-
Speaker 2 (49:20):
It's to provide expert, and the entire staff has been fired. Secretary Kennedy, I did note in your opening testimony, although we wouldn't know it from the skinny budget that we have, that you plan on funding the Head Start program, but I want to tell you about the ramifications of what has happened to date, with regard to Head Start. I've heard from families across the state, people who are terrified about the uncertainty and instability surrounding Head Start. Just one week into President Trump's Administration, Head Start programs in Wisconsin suddenly couldn't access their grant funding. It forced one Head Start in Waukesha, Wisconsin to temporarily close, leaving 250 families without care.
(50:16)
Over the last four months, HHS has provided roughly a billion dollars less to Head Start programs across the country than during the same period last year. The delays in funding have exacerbated uncertainty for programs needing to make payroll. In some instances, like the one I cited in Waukesha, programs have had to shut their doors until the payments came through. Now, I don't know what you would say to a parent who was unable to drop their child off at preschool because you failed to get already appropriated money out the door. Or maybe I should ask you, what would you say to a parent who shows up for child care or for Head Start and the doors are closed?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (50:59):
I would be very sad if somebody shut up. I fought very, very hard to make sure that-
Speaker 2 (51:05):
What is causing the delays in Head Start funding? That's my question.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (51:11):
I fought very hard to make sure that Head Start gets all of its funding next year.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Well, we need it this year. Why are there delays now?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (51:22):
I don't know that there are, Senator, and I will look into it, but I don't know. There should not be any delays, the funding is there, we are spending it, it's allocated. I don't know why there would be those kinds of problems. I can tell you that within the agency, there were people who wanted to make the Trump Administration look bad, and that there were checks held up, that shouldn't have been. I will have to look into that, Senator.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Senator Murkowski.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, welcome, good to see you. I want to talk a little bit about the HHS reorganization on some of the programs that impact Alaska's most vulnerable populations. I sent you a note letting you know that just after this hearing, I'm going to be chairing a senate committee on Indian Affairs, specifically examining HHS tribal programs that are outside of IHS. I really thank you for your early efforts to exempt IHS health care providers from the RIFs. That was very important.
(52:33)
I've also heard concerns from tribal leaders on the impacts of RIFs to key HHS programs serving their community. I know you're going to have some of your folks tuning in on that and I really appreciate that. Some of the other Reductions that we're looking at within your budget do have significant consequences to a state like mine. One is the LIHEAP program, the low-income energy assistance. For us, it's not a budget line item. You've been to Alaska, you know that the temperatures there can get really, really tough, it keeps people from freezing to death in their homes.
(53:07)
Another program is NIOSH, and I know that HHS had rescinded a number of those employees, that was great news, but the employees that received RIF notices for the program were not rescinded in the NIOSH Center for Marine Safety and Health Studies. This is a big deal for our commercial fishing safety. It could effectively leave our fishing fleet out of compliance with Coast Guard, safety regs, so we're watching that very, very carefully. Again, shared focus here on making sure that our children are as healthy as they possibly can be. I want to look to ways that we can strengthen and not eliminate the Head Start program. I wanted to ask you-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (53:53):
You're talking about the NIOSH program?
Speaker 3 (53:55):
NIOSH, yeah.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (53:56):
You should talk to me about that, as you know, that's something that I'm deeply concerned with, with the commercial fisheries, so we should talk about it and let's work for a solution.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
Got it. I am with you right there. Let me ask about domestic violence and sexual assault funding. Right now I'm talking, I'm receiving a lot of incoming from our community-based domestic and sexual violence program operators, they're really concerned about the delayed release of FY-25 funding, the absence of notices of funding opportunities as well as proposed cuts or consolidations that might threaten the Office of Family Violence Prevention and CDC's division of violence prevention.
(54:48)
You've got some programs there that are really foundational to domestic and sexual violence, they've been reauthorized with bipartisan support. I'm going to enter into the record a letter from the National Task Force. It basically was sent to you, I guess, yesterday just urging the communication of concrete plans for releasing some of these funds. I'm going to raise that to your level, but I want to make sure that we're sending the right signal to so many who are just really on the edge with, again, these community-based services that are helping the most vulnerable of the most vulnerable. We've got the funding that's out there, it's just delayed, we need help releasing that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (55:36):
Yeah, my understanding is that the domestic violence funding was not cut, so I don't know. I mean, I have to go back and check, but I specifically asked about that program last night, and I was told that there was no cuts, that President Trump is committed to it and so I don't know why people would be experiencing even delays.
Speaker 3 (56:01):
It may be that it is with the RIFs, you don't have people that are processing these things, so again, I want to get this to the top of your screen.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (56:07):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (56:10):
Last question for you. I mentioned LIHEAP. The budget proposal, the skinny budget proposes to eliminate LIHEAP and the proposal says that it is unnecessary because states have policies preventing utility disconnection for low-income households, effectively making LIHEAP a pass-through benefiting utilities in the northeast. Further, LIHEAP reward states like New York and California, two of the top recipients for LIHEAP funding, which have implemented anti-consumer policies. I'm just telling you, we're not in the northeast, we're not in that bucket, we're cold, there are other places that are hot, LIHEAP is a lifesaver. I did see your statement from yesterday saying that OMB was thinking that President Trump's energy policy is going to reduce cost dramatically. It may be a while. Right now folks in Alaska still need those ugly diesel generators to keep warm.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (57:07):
I was on the Navajo. First of all, I've heard that my whole life because my family was involved in providing low-cost energy to poor New England, and there are people in New England who suffer from if energy prices are high and you have a cold winter. I was on the Navajo reservation a couple of weeks ago, and Navajo President Buu Nygren said to me, if we cut LIHEAP, people will die on this reservation. I know the truth. The same is true in Alaska. The presumption behind the budget cuts were that the energy prices were going to drop dramatically, in which case these payments would just become a subsidy of the oil industry. If that doesn't happen, I would expect Congress would then still appropriate the money and I will spend it, I've already spent $400 million between January and now on this program and we've made sure to get it out to all the families that needed it.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
I think you're going to find a lot of support on this committee for that. Senator Murphy.
Senator Murphy (58:19):
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Secretary Kennedy, I want to talk to you about your relationship with this committee and this Congress. I want to talk to you about the statements that you made to the chairman of this committee and to members of this committee during your confirmation hearing about vaccines. You didn't tell the truth. I find that to be really dangerous for our relationship. If I were the chairman who believes in vaccines and voted for you because he believed what you said about supporting vaccines, my head would be exploding. In the hearing you told us, I will not work to impound, divert, or otherwise reduce any funding appropriated by Congress for the purpose of vaccination programs. That's not the truth. Let me finish. Let me finish my question.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (59:03):
Yeah, I didn't hear what you said, I'm just asking you to repeat it so I can understand your question.
Senator Murphy (59:08):
I'll repeat it. During the hearing you said to this committee and to the finance committee, I will not work to impound, divert, or otherwise reduce funding appropriated by Congress for the purpose of vaccination programs. That is not what happened, you've done the opposite. You canceled $12 billion in grants to the states, including my state, that are used to administer and track vaccines. You promised Chairman Cassidy-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (59:32):
When did I do that?
Senator Murphy (59:33):
Madam Chair, would you allow me to finish my question?
Speaker 3 (59:36):
Keep going with your question.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (59:36):
When did I do that?
Senator Murphy (59:40):
Let me finish my question.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (59:41):
You are making accusations, just tell me when I did it so I can understand what the question is.
Senator Murphy (59:46):
You have canceled $12 billion in public health grants to states, whether you know this or not, that funding is used by the states, in part, to be able to administer and dispense information
Senator Murphy (01:00:00):
… about vaccines.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:00:00):
[inaudible 01:00:03]
Senator Murphy (01:00:03):
Mr. Secretary, let me give you the full panoply of-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:00:06):
[inaudible 01:00:10]
Senator Murphy (01:00:09):
… The things you said before this committee that didn't turn out to be true. You also promised Chairman Cassidy that the FDA would not change vaccine standards from, quote, historical norms.
(01:00:21)
But what happened as soon as you were sworn in? You announced new standards for vaccine approvals that you proudly referred to in your own press release as a radical departure from current practice. And experts say that that departure will delay approvals.
(01:00:36)
You also said specific to the measles vaccine that you support the measles vaccine, but you have consistently been undermining the measles vaccine. You told the public that the vaccine wanes very quickly. You went on the Dr. Phil Show and said that the measles vaccine was never fully tested for safety. You said there's fetal debris in the measles vaccine.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:00:56):
All true. All true.
Senator Murphy (01:00:56):
And this morning, in front of-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:00:57):
Do you want me to lie to the public?
Senator Murphy (01:01:01):
That's not, none of that is true.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:01:02):
Of course it's true.
Senator Murphy (01:01:05):
None of that is true.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:01:05):
Of course it's true, Senator.
Senator Murphy (01:01:05):
[inaudible 01:01:09].
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:01:08):
Senator, [inaudible 01:01:09], you do not know what you're talking about.
Senator Murphy (01:01:10):
I submit for the record-
Senator Murkowski (01:01:11):
Let's have a little bit of order so that you can get your question, and he can get [inaudible 01:01:16].
Senator Murphy (01:01:15):
I didn't ask for a response yet.
Senator Murkowski (01:01:18):
I understand that.
Senator Murphy (01:01:18):
I'd like to lay out the predicate of my question before I'm interrupted by the witness. He should ask some respect for this committee.
Senator Murkowski (01:01:23):
Go ahead. Go ahead.
Senator Murphy (01:01:25):
Just this morning in front of the House of Representatives, you also said that you in fact would not recommend that kids get vaccinated for measles. You said you would just lay out the pros and cons.
(01:01:37)
Okay, so this is the summation of everything that you have said to compromise people's faith in the measles vaccine in particular is contrary to what you said before this committee. You said you support the measles vaccine, but then you have laid out a set of facts that are contested, and I will submit information for the record from experts who can test what you've said about the vaccine, and the result is to undermine faith in the vaccine.
(01:02:02)
It's kind of like saying, "Listen, I think you should swim in that lake, but the lake is probably toxic, and there's probably a ton of snakes and alligators in that lake, but I think you should swim in it." Nobody's going to swim in that lake if that's what you say.
(01:02:14)
And so, I want you to acknowledge that when you say you support the measles vaccine and then go out and repeatedly undermine the vaccine with information that is contested by public health experts, that is not supporting the vaccine.
(01:02:28)
And so, I guess I have two simple questions for you. One is, can you clarify what you said in the House this morning? Are you or are you not recommending that families get their children vaccinated? Or are you just giving people the pros and cons?
(01:02:44)
And do you understand that when you say these things about the measles vaccine, what ends up happening is less people get the vaccine. That may be what you want, but do you understand that the result of constantly questioning the efficacy or safety of the vaccine results in less people getting the vaccine?
(01:03:01)
So, I don't necessarily want to spend the remaining 20 seconds in an argument over the science, but do you at least understand that that's the consequence of what you're saying? And are you actually still recommending people get the vaccine or are you not?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:03:14):
If I advise you to swim in a lake that I knew there to be alligators in, wouldn't you want me to tell you there were alligators in it?
Senator Murphy (01:03:21):
So, are you recommending the measles vaccine or not?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:03:25):
What I've said and what I said-
Senator Murphy (01:03:26):
It doesn't sound like you are, if that's-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:03:29):
Are you going to let me answer? Are you going to keep interrupting me?
Senator Murphy (01:03:33):
Are you? Are you not?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:03:33):
Are you going to let me answer? What I pledged before this committee during my confirmation is that I would tell the truth, that I would have radical transparency. I'm going to tell the truth about everything we know and we don't know about vaccines.
Senator Murphy (01:03:45):
Are you recommending the measles vaccine or not?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:03:47):
I'm not going to just tell people everything is safe and effective if I know that there's issues. I need to respect people's in intelligence.
Senator Murphy (01:03:54):
I think you're answering the question. I think you're answering the question.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:03:56):
The reason that people-
Senator Murphy (01:03:58):
That's really dangerous for the American public and for families [inaudible 01:04:02].
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:04:02):
The reason people have lost faith in this program is because they've been lied to by public officials year after year after year.
Senator Murphy (01:04:05):
Secretary, [inaudible 01:04:06] you're no longer recommending the measles vaccine.
Senator Murkowski (01:04:08):
Senator Marshall.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:04:12):
By the way, I said at the hearing this morning that I was recommending the measles vaccine. Go look at the transcript.
Senator Murkowski (01:04:20):
Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall (01:04:20):
Madam Chairman, thank you so much for being here, Mr. Secretary. We're glad you're here. Let's stay on the measles vaccine just for a second. Let me catch my breath after that, all that. I'm an obstetrician. If a 25-year-old pregnant woman asked me if she should take the measles vaccine, the MMR, I would give her the answer, "No, you shouldn't."
(01:04:45)
But if she was 25 and trying to get pregnant, I would give her different advice. I've always valued the sanctity of the physician-patient relationship. I went to medical school for four years. I did four years of residency. I delivered thousands of babies. It's my job to give that recommendation. What's the role of the Secretary of HHS as far as recommendations of vaccine? And just discuss it a little bit further?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:05:11):
Well, the vaccine recommendations, Senator, are normally made through ASIP, which is the Advisory Committee of Immunization Practices, which is an outside consulting committee at CDC. There's another committee called VRBPAC, which is within FDA that actually recommends whether vaccines get licensed or not.
(01:05:34)
And so, that's where the recommendations come from and what traditionally they have not done evidence-based medicine. They only adopted evidence-based medicine about 12 years ago. And what we've said during our administration is we want to have safety studies prior to the licensure and recommendation of vaccines. Vaccines are the only medical product that is exempt from pre-licensing safety testing.
(01:06:03)
So, the only vaccine that has been tested in a full-blown placebo trial against an inert placebo was the COVID vaccine. The other, the other 76 shots at children in this country receive between birth and 18-years-old, none of them have been safety tested in pre-licensing studies against the placebo, which means we don't understand the risk profile for those products, and that's something that I intend to remedy.
Senator Marshall (01:06:33):
Okay. You said earlier you couldn't talk about the reorganization, and maybe you cannot answer this question, but maybe you can at least confirm these facts for me or not. Isn't it true that under Joe Biden's White House, they added 20,000 employees to HHS? When you were nominated, there was 28 divisions with HHS, 100 communication offices, 40 IT departments, nine HR units as well. Can you answer that question?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:07:09):
Yes, that's right. There are dozens of IT departments. There's eight senior finance officials. There are nine separate offices on women's health, eight separate offices for minority health, 27 separate offices for HIV, 59 behavioral health programs, 40 opioid programs. What we're trying to do is consolidate, streamline, eliminate the redundancies, eliminate all those administrative costs for each one of those little departments, consolidate them and make sense and make them accountable to the American people.
Senator Marshall (01:07:47):
I suppose all those IT systems communicate with each other. You all are on [inaudible 01:07:53]?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:07:52):
As you pointed out, there's 40 procurement departments with four separate computer systems that don't talk to each other. And as you pointed out, my department grew by 38% over the last four years. I would say that's great if Americans got healthier, but they didn't. They got worse.
(01:08:14)
So, what we're trying to do is go back to the pre-COVID levels and to start making the department function as it would if you, in a rational universe, and to bring in modern AI and telemedicine and all the opportunities we have now, these new efficiencies and for medical delivery to the American people and for patient care.
(01:08:41)
And we're not able to take advantage of any of them because there's so much chaos and disorganization in this department, and everybody who's gone up against it in the past has thrown their hands up and given up.
(01:08:54)
What we're saying is let's organize it in a way that it can quickly adopt and deploy all these opportunities we have to really deliver high quality healthcare to the American people.
Senator Marshall (01:09:05):
This was going to be a question. I'm just going to make a statement. All the research that we do on MAHA, on soil health, on nutrition, in my heart, that's research on cancer. It's research on Alzheimer's. At the end of the day as well, we should be spending as much money at the front side of this as we are trying to cure the end of it. We're seeing epidemics of colorectal cancer, young age Alzheimer's, all these things. And I think the research at the front end is every bit is important at the hind end.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:09:36):
And Senator Murphy made a good point. The NIH made all these extraordinary breakthroughs and particularly in treating cancer and reducing mortalities for colorectal cancer, but my question is, isn't it as important to find out why kids are getting colorectal cancer?
(01:09:57)
When you and I were kids, there was zero kids with colorectal cancer. It's epidemic now. So, it's not really a badge for us when we say, "Oh, we can make it less lethal." Why don't we go figure out what's causing it and eliminate that exposure? With all of these, with Alzheimer's, with heart disease, something is making Americans very, very sick. And our response should not be just, "Okay, we'll develop a pharmaceutical fix for it or medical fix."
(01:10:26)
Let's figure out what it is and get rid of it so we can have healthy kids again.
Senator Murkowski (01:10:31):
Thank you. Senator Kaine?
Senator Kaine (01:10:34):
Thank you, Mr. Kennedy, I want to ask you some questions about staff reduction and kind of the timing of it. You were confirmed by the Senate on February 13th, so I'm sort of assuming that things happened before you were confirmed where other people's work. On January 28, the Fork In The Road letter came out to people across the federal employment space, widely attributed to OPM and Elon Musk and DOGE. But that was before you were confirmed, so you had nothing to do with the Fork In The Road letter, correct?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:11:05):
Correct.
Senator Kaine (01:11:06):
Okay. You were confirmed on February 13th. On February 14th, one day later, HHS announced that 3,500 probationary employees were going to be laid off. I know you are a hard worker, but am I right to assume that in the one day between your confirmation and the next day, you weren't the primary decision-maker about laying off probationary employees at HHS?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:11:28):
I was aware of it, and I could have blocked it.
Senator Kaine (01:11:31):
Yeah. You were aware of it. So, you weren't the primary decision-maker. Was that a decision that was made like OPM or DOGE, because it wasn't just HHS. It was all federal agencies would lay off probationary. Do you know where that decision-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:11:44):
I had my full upper staff in place before I got there.
Senator Kaine (01:11:48):
Right, but did they make the decision or was it White House and DOGE to lay off probationary employees?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:11:53):
They made the decision. My staff made the decision, although DOGE came in, and DOGE gave us information that we wouldn't otherwise have had access to.
Senator Kaine (01:12:02):
Okay, next we go to April 1st.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:12:04):
I can also say this.
Senator Kaine (01:12:04):
No, all I asked was if you made it, and you answered the question ,and I appreciate it. April 1st, HHS RIFs 10,000 employees, effective June 2nd. Now, by this point you had been Secretary for about six weeks.
(01:12:18)
A few days after that announcement, HHS staff briefed our staff that the Senate helped staff, and basically just, here's some highlights, in that 10,000 RIFs 467 staff at the Administration for Children and Families, 2,473 at the Centers for Disease Control, 322 at CMS, 400 at HRSA, 1,312 at National Institutes of Health, 197 at SAMHSA, 2,519 at the Food and Drug Administration.
(01:12:47)
By now you've been Secretary for six weeks. So, this was RIFs, not the forks, but you were involved in the decision about these 10,000 RIFs, correct?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:12:56):
Yes.
Senator Kaine (01:12:57):
And in tandem with your leadership team, correct?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:13:01):
Yes. And as I said before, I pushed back on certain ones and canceled certain ones.
Senator Kaine (01:13:05):
Yeah. I think yesterday, it may have been earlier today, you confirmed that 20,000 employees have been let go at HHS, 10,000 RIF-ed and 10,000 forked. Do you know how many of the 20,000 were veterans?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:13:26):
No, I do not.
Senator Kaine (01:13:27):
That is a fact. That's very easy to determine from someone's personnel file. So, I'm going to ask that question for the record. We are finding across the government that veterans are disproportionately being let go, A, because they're a higher percentage of the federal workforce. And B, they're a dramatically higher percentage of probationary employees, because they leave military service after 10 or 25 years, and then their probationary, new employees when they join the civilian service.
(01:13:54)
So, I want to find the answer to that question. Where does the rubber meet the road on 20,000 RIFs and layoffs and forks? In people not getting cancer trials? And I appreciate your willingness to help Senator Murray's constituent. In state grants being canceled? In Virginia, losing $425 million in funding to the Virginia Department of Health?
(01:14:19)
But here's a small example. All of our offices do casework. All of them do casework, and we get requests from constituents all the time. CMS is the largest agency in the federal government. Its budget is nearly twice the size of the Pentagon, and people who depend on Medicaid, Medicare and the S-CHIP program really, really depend on it.
(01:14:43)
And it's the most consistent in the top three or four in terms of constituent requests to my office. Answer this question about Medicare or Medicaid, the S-CHIP program. In every administration I've served with Obama, Trump one, Biden, I get answers to questions on behalf of constituents. I may not get them as fast as I like, and sometimes I like the answer, and sometimes I don't.
(01:15:05)
But let me show you what CMS is now doing to answer constituent questions. I've omitted the name of the constituent, and I've omitted the name of my staffer. This was very recent. A hardworking retiree, patriotic, taxpaying American who's on Medicare, wrote to ask CMS a very simple question about Medicare. Couldn't get an answer.
(01:15:28)
Asked us to reach out. We reached out to the Medicare Part C and the Congressional Liaison Office, and here was their answer to our basic question, "Unfortunately, there is not an update to provide. With the recent change of administration, we are unable to provide any information related on matters related to Mr. X's request. Congressional casework team."
(01:15:56)
I mean, if you're just an everyday, hardworking American retiree on Medicare, and you have a basic question about it, you ought to be able to get an answer. And I'm just going to say I've shared this with my colleagues, and many of us are having the same experience where our constituents can't get a basic question answered. I wonder if 20,000 fewer employees is connected to this.
(01:16:18)
I yield back, Mr. Chair.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (01:16:20):
Senator Husted.
Senator Husted (01:16:21):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Kennedy, thank you for being with us today. Appreciate the work that you have done in trying to raise awareness about Making America Healthy Again, particularly as it relates to our dietary consumption, how food can be medicine. Food can make us sick. You have raised a great deal of awareness, and when we talk about public education campaigns, I think you've done more to shine the light on things that average Americans can do to make themselves healthier than almost any secretary I can recall. So, thank you for that service.
(01:17:01)
I also have listened to a lot of the conversation today where somehow we think that spending more is somehow compassionate on every single thing. You have to spend more to do it, even though every single person in this Congress knows that they are spending borrowed money that our children will have to repay, $106,000 their share of the national debt when you're a child born into this nation right now. And everything that you can do to create savings and improve the quality of services that American taxpayers get from your agency, I commend you on it. I encourage you to do so.
(01:17:48)
I want to give you the opportunity to share a couple points that you might want to share about how some of the work that you're doing in this budget is going to help people become healthier, generate some better outcomes for them, and savings that you think can be created that would not harm somebody's health, but actually preserve the fiscal future of this nation so that those children can grow up and have access to the American dream that we all had access to when we were born in this nation. So, just share your thoughts.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:18:20):
And I appreciate you raising that about the debt issue, because the point I was making earlier was that there's no agency head that wants to reduce the size of their agency. I'd rather have as much money and power as I can possibly have. I recognize that President Trump and the OMB director have a larger duty and a larger vision, which is we're spending $2 trillion a year that we don't have. And we're billing our children, and that is a moral deficiency.
(01:18:51)
Senator Sanders asked me about the morality of universal health, and there's a good moral argument for that, but there's also a moral argument, and when we're spending a trillion dollars a year just to service that debt, within five years, half of every dollar collected in taxes is going to go to servicing the debt. And within 10 years it could be 100%, and then our kids are doomed.
(01:19:18)
And the debt is a social determinant of health. But we are trying to reverse that, and we're doing it in a way that's not just throwing more money at the problem. We are revising the GRAS standards. 20 years the Democrats have said we need to revise the GRAS standards. I've done it in 100 days.
(01:19:39)
We're getting rid of nine petroleum-based synthetic dyes in our food. 20 years the Democrats have been saying, "We want to do this," and I've done that in 100 days. I'm rewriting the dietary guidelines. The dietary guidelines that President Biden gave us, 453 pages long, and it's just an industry-generated document, the same industry [inaudible 01:20:05] that put Fruit Loops at the top of the food pyramid.
(01:20:08)
We are creating a four-page document that can be locally sourced so that that will drive the School Lunch Program. We've called on and inspired governors and legislators across the country to ask for exemptions to the SNAP program to get soda and candy off of SNAP. Am I getting, is that a time? No?
Senator Husted (01:20:36):
You're good. Thank you for the work on SNAP, by the way, because getting unhealthy foods out of that program. If you're at the bottom quartile of income, you're almost twice as likely to be obese as if you're at the top [inaudible 01:20:50]-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:20:49):
And diabetic.
Senator Husted (01:20:52):
And it's costing people their productivity, their quality of life. It's costing the American taxpayer more money through Medicare, Medicaid and other health services we provide. And I just would say, we talked about kids. I want to give you a moment to share a thought.
(01:21:10)
In 2022, we had a shortage of infant formula. There's a look at children now about what they should have in that infant formula. You're doing that with the…
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:21:22):
Operations Stork Speed.
Senator Husted (01:21:24):
Yeah, exactly. Tell us a little bit about that, and just if you have a moment. Well, I'll just say, Mr. Chairman, thank you for doing that. How about that? There we go.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (01:21:38):
[inaudible 01:21:39] But the secretary made the statement that no vaccines except for Covid have been evaluated against placebo. For the record, that's not true. Rotavirus, measles and HPV vaccines have been, and some vaccines are tested against previous versions. So, just for the record to set that straight. Next, Senator Hassan.
Senator Hassan (01:21:56):
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And Secretary Kennedy, thank you for being here. I'd like to start by talking about the current measles outbreak, which I know is a concern for all of us here today. Two children in Texas have tragically died from measles this year, the first children to die from measles in our country in more than 20 years.
(01:22:16)
Measles is almost completely preventable with the measles vaccine. As you know, it's critical that families hear directly and clearly from healthcare leaders about how they can best protect their children.
(01:22:28)
So, Mr. Secretary, I'd like to give you an opportunity to say clearly here today to any parents who are watching that the best way to protect their children from measles is to vaccinate them.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:22:39):
Yeah, I've said that, that the best way to stop the spread of measles is through vaccination, but I would say this. We have handled this measles outbreak. We get a measles outbreak every year. We've handled this measles outbreak better than any other nation.
Senator Hassan (01:22:54):
What I was interested in, I'm just, you can say, what I asked you to do was to say straight to the camera as you did on social media, that it is your position that the best way for parents to prevent their kids from getting measles is to vaccinate them. And that is your statement today.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:23:08):
[inaudible 01:23:09]
Senator Hassan (01:23:09):
[inaudible 01:23:09] All right. Well, that is great. Thank you. Now, you lead the nation's Health Department. So, let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you think HHS should employ anyone who has endangered the health of children?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:23:22):
No.
Senator Hassan (01:23:25):
You hired David Geier to lead autism research at HHS, an individual who fraudulently posed as a doctor and gave dangerous medications and medical tests to children with autism. According to the state of Maryland's investigation, David Geier, who has no medical license or training, gave hormone blocker injections to children with autism who were as young as eight-years-old, which the Maryland Board of Medicine said poses a substantial risk of harm.
(01:23:56)
Secretary Kennedy, yes or no, will you fire David Geier?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:24:00):
First of all, what you're saying is not true. We did not hire David Geier to manage autism research at HHS.
Senator Hassan (01:24:08):
So, what is his job then?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:24:09):
You just said some very defamatory-
Senator Hassan (01:24:13):
Well, no, I-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:24:14):
… things about a person who, by the way-
Senator Hassan (01:24:17):
So, let me just be clear for the record-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:24:18):
Those charges, Senator, I am going to correct the record on this, because you have defamed a person-
Senator Hassan (01:24:24):
Let me tell you what the record says, and then I will hear from you. Last week when Mr. O'Neill was here in his confirmation hearing, I submitted for the record the charge that the state of Maryland laid out. Now, if you'd like also for me to submit to the record with unanimous consent today the findings of the state of Maryland, which fined him $10,000 for practicing medicine without a license, he does not have a medical license, and for providing and instructing and giving children hormone blockers. That is what the finding of the Maryland Department, the state of Maryland's Medical Licensing Board was. And I'll submit that for the record. I hope with unanimous consent.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:25:05):
I'm assuming that you don't know what I'm about to tell you, or you wouldn't say something that was so dishonest. You may or may not know that David Geier sued the American Board of [inaudible 01:25:18].
Senator Hassan (01:25:17):
Oh, I do know that. I do know that. That doesn't change the findings, nor does it change the experience of the parents who testified.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:25:26):
And that finding was reversed. That finding was reversed by court, and he was awarded $5 million. [inaudible 01:25:32]
Senator Hassan (01:25:31):
That is not true. Now, let me ask you, so I just want confirmation. David Geier is still at HHS. I wrote you a letter about this a months ago. And you have not responded.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:25:43):
Well, I apologize for that. That's our ba.d and I will respond. But David Geier is not managing autism research at my agency.
Senator Hassan (01:25:51):
So, what is his job?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:25:52):
And he never said that he was.
Senator Hassan (01:25:53):
What is his job at HHS? This is somebody who gave parents the impression that he was a doctor and gave hormone blockers to children as young as eight, telling them that hormone blockers would somehow magically help their kids with autism.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:26:07):
His father was-
Senator Hassan (01:26:09):
His father is a doctor, but he is not. And his father was not in the room, and did not, and he faked his father's signature, according to the State Board of Medicine.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:26:19):
And that ruling was overturned by a court. So, what you're saying is just wrong. It's just a lie. And they were actually, the court said that the Maryland Board of Physicians was guilty of actual malice in fabricating those charges against David Geier.
Senator Hassan (01:26:35):
Well, we will pursue this.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:26:36):
Yeah, so-
Senator Hassan (01:26:37):
Last, and I will submit for the record.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:26:39):
So, do you want to know why we brought David Geier in?
Senator Hassan (01:26:43):
Sure.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:26:44):
Because it wasn't to run autism research. In 2002 David, the CDC runs a vaccine safety data link, which is supposed to be the vaccine information for the biggest HMOs that are supposed to allow CDC to have a surveillance system for vaccine injury. It's a backstop system. The CDC will not let any physicians in there to look at it or any scientist, independent scientist.
Senator Hassan (01:27:12):
He's neither a scientist nor a physician.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:27:14):
Right. Congress ordered CDC to open it to the Geiers, so they are the only scientists who have ever been in there.
Senator Hassan (01:27:23):
But again, Mr. Geier is not a scientist. Thank you. [inaudible 01:27:29]
Senator Hawley (01:27:29):
Senator Hassan's time has expired. But before we move on, did you have a unanimous consent request that I heard in there, Senator?
Senator Hassan (01:27:35):
Senator Hawley, I did. A unanimous consent request for the printout of the website that shows Dr. Geier is, not Dr. Geier, that's his father. Mr. Geier is employed, and also a unanimous consent request for the finding from the Board of Licensing in Maryland. Thank you.
Senator Hawley (01:27:55):
Yeah, without objection to both of those.
Senator Hassan (01:27:57):
Thank you.
Senator Hawley (01:27:57):
And now, Mr. Kennedy, before we get to my time, if you'd like to finish your response, go ahead and I'll recognize myself.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:28:04):
David Geier is the only living independent scientist who's seen the VSD inside. There's been a lot of monkey business with the VSD, including allegations of fraud. And he was hired by an independent contractor that we, not as an HHS employee, but by an independent contractor to look at the documents that we were getting to the VSD to see if they conformed with what he saw between 2002 and 2016. And that's the only reason that he was brought in, to see if there was… There is so much information that has disappeared from that database. The only way we could find out what information disappeared was because he was the one guy who saw it.
Senator Hassan (01:28:49):
And just let the record show he's not a scientist. Thank you very much.
Senator Hawley (01:28:53):
All right, Secretary Kennedy, different subject. On a different subject. You and I have talked before when you've been before this committee, and you and I have talked in person a number of times about Mifeprestone. I just want to follow up with you, because since the last time you were before the committee and the last time you and I spoke, there's been a major study by the Ethics and Public Policy Center of 865,727 prescribed cases of Mifeprestone abortions, chemical abortions between 2017 and 2023. Have you seen this study? Are you familiar with this?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:29:22):
Yes, I am.
Senator Hawley (01:29:23):
You will remember then that this data shows the biggest study on Mifeprestone done, I think ever. And it showed that nearly 11% of women experience very serious adverse health effects to include sepsis, hemorrhaging, infection, of course, emergency room visits. Now, by the way, that's 22 times higher. That rate is 22 times higher than the FDA's current label, which says it's just 0.5, the incidence of serious adverse health events.
(01:29:52)
So, my question to you is this. You previously testified to the committee that you would do a top to bottom review of Mifeprestone. Mifeprestone is subject
Senator Hawley (01:30:00):
To a REMS currently. You have said you'll do a top to bottom review. Do you continue to stand by that, and don't you think that this new data shows that the need to do a review is in fact very pressing?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:30:11):
I think the new data, first of all, it validates the CAS study, which is previously probably the most comprehensive data that we've seen on it, and it is alarming and clearly it indicates that at very least the label should be changed. I've asked Marty McCary, who's the director of FDA, to do a complete review and to report back.
Senator Hawley (01:30:39):
Good. Do you have any sense of timeline, Secretary?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:30:42):
I do not.
Senator Hawley (01:30:42):
It'll be a top priority though for you, is that safe to say? You say that it probably indicates the label needs to be changed. Do you think it's also important as part of your review to consider whether it's necessary now to put back in place the longstanding safety protocols that always accompanied Mifepristone until the last administration, in-person dispensing, doctor visits, screening for ectopic pregnancies?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:31:06):
I know that Marty McCary will make a recommendation. I feel that the policy changes will ultimately go through the White House, through President Trump.
Senator Hawley (01:31:18):
But you'll make a recommendation based on the data.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:31:20):
Yes.
Senator Hawley (01:31:21):
Good. On a different subject. Talking about the advertising that is routinely done by pharmaceutical companies, you have been a longtime critic of direct-to-consumer pharmaceutical advertising. You wrote, I think, in the Wall Street Journal a little over a year ago about the need to revisit guidelines around pharmaceutical advertising. Is that still your view? I mean, have your views changed?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:31:45):
Pharmaceutical advertising is particularly insidious because commercial advertising has some level of First Amendment protection, not as great as political speech. It doesn't have the kind of strict scrutiny applied to political speech. It still has a level of protection. But pharmaceutical advertising is unique because if a company's advertising, for example, Coca-Cola, a consumer has a choice whether to buy it and then he's spending his own money on it, so he's got skin in the game. Pharmaceutical advertising, the consumer's purchasing the product, and it's usually the most expensive form of the product, so they're usually advertising because they want to bury the existence and the availability of generic drugs that are much cheaper and equally effective. And the consumer is spending not his own money, and most often our money, taxpayer money. Furthermore, the pharmaceutical ad is getting tax deduction, so we are funding it.
Senator Hawley (01:32:50):
I want to ask you just about that. Under current law, pharma companies can deduct their advertising costs as a business expense. Do you think it's time to change that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:32:58):
Yeah, and actually have a call into Scott Bessent about that. But I'm working very hard on this issue, and we expect to come out with a policy within the next few weeks.
Senator Hawley (01:33:08):
Well, let me propose that we work together. Today, I'm introducing legislation to repeal the tax deductibility of these advertisements. It is a bipartisan bill with Senator Shaheen on the other side of the aisle here. It is a bicameral bill with both the Democrat and Republican sponsors in the House of Representatives, and my view is it's time to get rid of these tax breaks for these companies and to end this practice. Can you support that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:33:32):
A hundred percent support it.
Senator Hawley (01:33:32):
Fantastic. I look forward to working with you on that. All right, let the record reflect, I'm giving up Senator Hickenlooper's 15 seconds…
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:33:39):
I assume Senator Sanders will also support that.
Sen. Sanders (01:33:43):
Absolutely. And I'll go further. The idea you…
Senator Hawley (01:33:47):
This is coming out of your time now, John.
Sen. Sanders (01:33:48):
The answer is yes.
Senator Hawley (01:33:50):
All right. Senator Hickenlooper.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:33:53):
Senator Sanders, can finish your thought please.
Sen. Sanders (01:33:57):
I think along with New Zealand, the only countries on earth that allow for pharmaceutical advertising. I think it's time we ended that.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:34:09):
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for taking the time and for your willingness to come into public sector. I'm not going to try and play gotcha, but it is an opportunity to spend a little bit of philosophical time. And I guess one question is, do you think our country spends too much on scientific research?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:34:25):
No.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:34:26):
Okay. And so obviously you know the NIH is the largest in terms of biomedical research. There's the Howard Hughes Institute, but the NIH…
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:34:34):
70% of the world.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:34:34):
Exactly. 70% of the world. And I guess when you look at the level of cuts that we're facing over there, and I recognize that a lot of these cuts are imposed upon you, but there's a gap and basic fundamental research that's going to have to be filled somehow. Have you got any ideas of how we can do that given the scale, the dimension of the loss that we're facing?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:35:00):
Well, first of all, my job is to support the president on this and to support OMB. The reality is that, as I've said, no agency head wants to see cuts to his agency. I love scientific research, so I want to do it as much as possible. But I think because of the… We are very, very aggressively implementing AI and I think we're going to do it faster and better than anybody else in government, any other agency. We brought very, very high quality caliber people from Silicon Valley.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:35:36):
And I get that. And that will accelerate and help us do more.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:35:39):
We can shorten clinical trials, we can get rid of animal trials, which we're already doing.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:35:44):
I'm in support of all that. We can talk about that later.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:35:48):
And we can now…
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:35:48):
The research I'm talking about is not that so much as the basic science research.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:35:55):
Like bench science or epidemiological studies or whatever. And I think we can do a lot of that stuff quicker. I'll take as much money as you give me and I'll spend it well.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:36:05):
Well, I just want to make sure to urge you to be a fighter for more of that research because there's a questioning of science right now within many in the White House, not everyone, but many in the White House, it really needs to be pushed back. And Senator Hawley, I'll sign on to that bill as well. Second question I've got. We have a lot of issues around wildfires in Colorado right now. This is back to the NIOSH, the National Institute of Occupational Safety Health. You mentioned that they kept them in Cleveland and I think somewhere in Pennsylvania. Pretty much everyone's laid off in Colorado.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:36:52):
In Oregonstown. Yeah.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:36:53):
Yeah. Everyone's laid off in Colorado. And the question really, and I think a couple have been ordered to be reinstated, but all the west is dealing with thousands, tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people out fighting fires. These are people risking their lives, walk away from their families every day, and the basic research that needs to be done, I don't think the replacements are going to be… In many cases they're new onto the job, they're not going to be sufficient to address and really make sure the specific health needs of these workers, these outdoor workers are addressed. So the question is how can we, how can you make sure that folks in Colorado like firefighters are able to do their jobs safely?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:37:41):
I think a lot of the cuts that we're implementing now are painful cuts. They are cuts that are going to be difficult. But I think the president's position is that we're spending $2 trillion that we don't have and we are taking from our children and we've got to protect their rights to prosperity, to enrichment, to dignity, to choice.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:38:15):
I've heard that argument and I appreciate it, and I'm a voice of frugality, at least in my office, and try to push it around the Senate where it's allowed, but we're looking at budgets that's going to increase the deficit by who knows how much, four to $5 trillion, to take things like this that we know are successful. And not just for Colorado, but for almost every western state essential, and we're cutting. You're saving such a small amount of money for something that's so important. I just hope that you can push back on that a little bit. Someone's got to take a stand for these things that are minor financial benefits, but significant losses to how we provide safety for workers and our citizens.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:39:01):
I'm happy to work with you on that, Senator.
Sen. Hickenlooper (01:39:03):
Okay, great. I yield back to the chair.
Sen. Cassidy (01:39:08):
The committee will be adjourned for five minutes subject to the call of the chair. Senator Banks, you are next.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:46:03):
Senator, can I just say one word?
Sen. Cassidy (01:46:05):
Yes, sir.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:46:07):
I want to clarify an issue that we talked about before. Senator Murray had raised the issue of a constituent of hers who she said had been denied a place in a clinical trial in Washington due to the riff. We've been able to run down that case. The patient was medically ineligible for that trial. There was…
Sen. Cassidy (01:46:34):
Ineligible?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:46:35):
Medically ineligible. It had nothing to do with the riff. And NIH had been trying to get her into another clinical trial, but none of our clinical trials were shut down because of the riff. That was a canard.
Sen. Cassidy (01:46:48):
Thank you for the clarification. Senator Banks.
Sen. Banks (01:46:51):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Kennedy, you're showing compassion for Americans with autism and their families. There's still so much that we don't know about the conditions and there are many questions to be answered, and that's why I was glad that you recently announced an autism research database similar to a registry that you created. The NIH has more than 80 registries for different diseases and they're a critical tool to understand disease progression. But even in spite of all of that, you were immediately attacked for privacy violations and accused of ulterior motives. Can you tell us today, how will this database handle protected health information, and is it an opt-in or an opt-out database?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:47:38):
Thank you Senator for asking that. This is a database, as you say… There's actually 190 disease databases at my agency. Almost every important disease has a registry. Arthritis has a registry, for example, heart disease, cancer, various kinds of cancers. And the registry is intended to help scientists research what causes the etiology of diseases and also what the cures are. It's entirely voluntary, patient privacy is protected, the data is digitalized and depersonalized so that people cannot find out who the patient is and patients have an absolute right to opt out of it. So it's entirely voluntary. But it's a very important tool for scientists to use who want to understand how to treat diseases. If there's a number of people who've used, for example, chelation therapies on autism, and you can look at that, you can see what the outcomes were, or other kinds of therapies, microbiome treatments, all these various treatments the physicians and frontline treatment nurses and doctors are using across the country to address disease and find out which ones work and which ones don't.
Sen. Banks (01:49:00):
You've also been accused of assuming an environmental cause of autism and rejecting a genetic cause. Can we say that your critics are misrepresenting what you really believe?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:49:10):
Well, I don't think… If my critics are saying that I rejected genetic cause, I think they're correct in the sense that the autism is an epidemic and the genes do not cause epidemics. They can contribute a vulnerability, but you need an environmental toxin. It's like cigarettes and smoking. Smoking cigarettes was killing one out of every five of its customers, the tobacco industry. That meant four out of five were survived. So there's a genetic component to the ones who got lung cancer and died, and that is a genetic vulnerability. But you also need an environmental toxin. You cannot have a sudden epidemic without an environmental exposure.
Sen. Banks (01:50:02):
Have you halted or redirected funding away from any pre-existing autism research?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:50:11):
I am told. And I haven't done this calculation myself, but I'm told that there was a 20 to one research ratio for genetic cause of autism over the past 20 years at NIH. And if you ask me, I believe that was because they did not want to look at the environmental exposures because they were scared of what they'd found. So I don't think we should be funding that genetic work anymore. I think we know a lot about the genes that are followed by vulnerabilities, high testosterone, low glutathione, the MTHFR gene, genes to control methylation. All of these are involved and we know that. And what we really need to do now is to identify the environmental toxins.
Sen. Banks (01:51:00):
I appreciate greatly your attention and effort on that. Secretary Kennedy, we're importing a third of our medicines from China. It's a public health risk as well as a national security risk, and you and I discussed this in your confirmation hearing. I asked you at that point about re-shoring medicine production from China during that hearing. I wonder if you could give us any updates on how that's happening.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:51:23):
Yeah, I think there are very exciting things happening, and some of them as a direct result of President Trump's tariffs. And I've been working very closely with David Ricks of Eli Lilly. I think they've been the most aggressive of any of the pharmaceutical companies about answering President Trump's summons to onshore production. They have nine facilities now that are breaking ground. And one of them, the API facility that they're breaking ground on will be, I believe, the biggest API facility in the world. These are ingredients, active pharmaceutical ingredients. China controls that market right now, and this single facility could give us back dominance of that market. So I'm very, very optimistic about what's happening and I'm very grateful to Eli Lilly, which has not always been a big ally of mine. I'm grateful and we've been working very closely with the leadership of Eli Lilly to make sure they get what they need to onshore production because we saw during Covid that for essential medicines, we cannot afford to have the ingredients off-shored.
Sen. Banks (01:52:40):
Thank you for your leadership. I yield back.
Sen. Cassidy (01:52:41):
Senator Markey.
Sen. Markey (01:52:43):
Thank you. Mr. Secretary, all I've been hearing from you today is your defense of an advocacy fund, brutal cuts to Medicaid, brutal cuts to NIH research to find the cure for Alzheimer's and cancer and other diseases, brutal cuts to community health centers, brutal cuts to the CDC, the early warning system for diseases, and all to find the funding for tax cuts for billionaires and millionaires. That's all I've been hearing. And it is absolutely unbelievable that the Secretary of Health and Human Services can sit before the health committee and make such an argument. So Secretary Kennedy, for months I've been hearing from people about the impact that you and Donald Trump have had on them, and for months I've been sharing their stories and I've compiled them here. And Mr. Chairman, I'd like to include my Make America Sick Agenda…
Sen. Cassidy (01:53:48):
Without objection.
Sen. Markey (01:53:49):
Included in the record. Thank you. This is a set of stories that are being told to me that I would like to relate to you. Jennifer, who's from Massachusetts, is a stage four cancer patient. There is no cure for her diagnosis. Her life depends on federal investment in research and for clinical trials to continue uninterrupted to find a cure for Jennifer with NIH funding. She's right to be worried. I heard from Henry in Rhode Island who wants continued funding for cancer research where he works. He's worried about getting fired because the lab's NIH grants under new leadership were cut. He wants to work on cancer research to find the cure for Jennifer. You've already terminated $1.8 billion in NIH funding, which for Jennifer should really stand for National Institutes of Hope. She's losing hope. You are defending a 40% cut, Mr. Secretary, in research for Alzheimer's, for cancer, for stroke, for diabetes, for mental health. They're being slowed, they're being slashed.
(01:55:07)
And I understand streamlining, but this is not streamlining. It is a bludgeoning of our health future and a giveaway of our global scientific leadership, and it will be people like Jennifer who will pay the price. Lou from Massachusetts, he wrote to me about his son who died of an overdose. He said his son Zach was a loving and loved family member who had the illness of addiction. He wants research to cure this disease, funding for treatment without stigma, support for health workers serving people with addiction to prevent any other family member from suffering from the same fate. Can you honestly tell us or tell him actually that you can cut $1 billion from the substance abuse and mental health administration, including funding for programs to teach first responders how to use Naloxone to help to guarantee that other parents not lose their children? Can you honestly tell me that the cuts you have already made to addiction treatment across the country will make anyone healthier? How can you justify a billion-dollar cut to substance abuse and mental health, Mr. Secretary?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:56:21):
Senator Markey, you weren't here when I was talking earlier, but one of the things that I've talked about is that the budget for my agency increased by 38% over the Biden administration, and Americans got sicker and more Americans overdosed and more Americans died from cancer. And we have now an epidemic of colorectal cancers in our children. And the chronic disease rate has now gone up to 60%. The autism rate has dropped to one in 31 children. And all that money that was supposed to cure those diseases or refer them, none of it worked. All we need is leadership and a new vision, and I'm bringing that to my agency, and I'm realigning my agency.
Sen. Markey (01:57:04):
President Trump is negotiating with the Chinese about keeping fentanyl out of our country.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:57:12):
Well that's a good thing, isn't it?
Sen. Markey (01:57:14):
In the meantime, we can't be cutting the programs for the people who are already suffering from opioid related diseases. We can't cut the programs. Yes, it would be great if we could cut it, it'd be great if we could reduce it. While we're waiting for that to happen, why would we cut $1 billion from the programs that go to the families that have the substance abuse issues right now? Why would we cut it now before we get a solution to the problem? They need treatment now.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:57:48):
Most of the programs that support addiction, including naltrexone, narcan, suboxone, methadone, housing, we operate under SAMHSA, 500 rehabs that give people access under Medicaid, we are keeping those intact. President Trump, because of his leadership, has dropped the fentanyl imports from this country because of his leadership at the border by 40%. So we're actually doing more with less, and we are going to continue to do that. And what I'm doing at my agency is I'm realigning all these perverse incentives that have driven up costs and driven down health. I'm realigning so that people can make money in this country and markets can make money.
Sen. Markey (01:58:35):
Look, 80,000 people died last year. This is not about efficiency. This is about cruelty. Cutting these programs [inaudible 01:58:43]. These people are already addicted. These people already need help.
Sen. Cassidy (01:58:47):
Senator Markey.
Sen. Markey (01:58:48):
Families need right now.
Sen. Cassidy (01:58:49):
Senator Markey.
Sen. Markey (01:58:50):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Sen. Cassidy (01:58:53):
Senator Moody.
Sen. Moody (01:58:54):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for being here. I think it is wonderful that we are doing this hearing. Thank you Mr. Chairman. And I believe this is the Help Committee's first HHS budget hearing in more than two decades. And certainly I don't think this afternoon has been easy on you and we are grateful that you're willing to answer the hard questions.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (01:59:17):
Thank you, Senator Moody.
Sen. Moody (01:59:18):
And have the difficult discussions because if I heard you correctly, the 60%, 50%, whatever, increase in the last five years in your agency you said reflected or resulted in people getting sicker and more people dying. And we have to do more than just think throwing money at something is going to solve a problem. And I am grateful for everyone that's stepping up on the cabinet and saying, "I want to do this job in a deliberate way that's going to deliver for the people that means more than just coming here to Washington and throwing money at problems and spending taxpayer monies without giving a lot of deliberate forethought
Sen. Moody (02:00:00):
… forethought to results, and I think that's what you've been trying to say here today. I appreciate you tackling this because not many people would want to brave this job certainly at this moment in time. As our nation is spiraling out of control and more and more debt and more and more spending, we have got to be responsible for the future stability and success of this country. So thank you. I start there.
(02:00:25)
I also note that in some of the numbers that we saw in this proposal, there wasn't much information in terms of asking for more money. I'm assuming that you're not asking for money specifically related to the FDA, and I wanted to focus on a few things. I believe your approach is probably going to be how can we be better? How can we use the resources we have to do more for the American people, deliver on their health without spending more money?
(02:00:51)
One of those ways I believe in the FDA would be to tackle Chinese illicit vapes. I think 60% of their vape market that are in no way regulated … We have no idea what are in these things … Chemical-ridden vapes all over the United States being bought by all of our kids. I would ask that you dig into that and look at that. I know the FDA has been backlogged, and excuses kept coming out on why they weren't following through and enforcing this thing. Meanwhile, we have more and more kids that are vaping these chemicals, and we have no idea what's in them. So would you look at that with your department using the resources that you're asking for today?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:01:33):
Yeah, absolutely. We are looking at it right now. During the Biden administration, the FDA slow-walked the approvals for US vaping companies. The US vaping companies in my view were acting very responsibly. They were putting chips in their vapes that would make sure that young people could not use them. They were giving good information about addiction, and they had very extensive labels. They really went out of their way not to make it attractive to children. They were slow-walked, so they're off the market, and in order to fill the vacuum, hundreds of Chinese companies came in with these colored, beautifully attractive, comic books-
Sen. Moody (02:02:25):
Sour grape, watermelon.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:02:27):
Watermelons. All these flavors are targeted kids. They have video games on the vapes that lure kids into addiction.
Sen. Moody (02:02:35):
So you're in tune with that.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:02:35):
And we are going to wipe them out.
Sen. Moody (02:02:39):
Thank you.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:02:40):
We're gonna get rid of all of them.
Sen. Moody (02:02:40):
Thank you for that commitment. As a mother of a teenager and on behalf of all moms of teenagers, I know that vaping was going on in some of even our elementary and middle schools. We thank you. Using the resources that are given to you if we are just more deliberate and aggressive in what we're doing within the agency, I think we can make a huge difference.
(02:02:57)
I want to direct your attention to one more important issue. One of the things that drives me crazy is when nonsense regulations are on the books, and they have no benefit whatsoever, but yet they're on the books, and businesses are trying to comply with them. In our citrus industry, our orange juice producers, there is a regulation that requires a certain sugar content. It's called a Brix Standard. It doesn't affect quality or nutrition at all. In fact, our oranges now that are being produced in Florida produce slightly less sugar. But because of this arbitrary standard, producers of orange juice in Florida have now had to start importing from foreign companies and foreign nations oranges into our country to mix with our products to deliver orange juice. The standard, it doesn't affect quality or-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:03:45):
To raise the sugar content in the orange juice?
Sen. Moody (02:03:47):
We want to lower the sugar content that's required by this regulation. I'm sure you would not disagree with that, but would you look into an interim final rule that would lower that slightly to save the orange juice industry domestically?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:04:00):
Yeah. Why don't you call Heather Flick, who's behind me or Hannah Anderson this week, and we will act on that as quickly as we can.
Sen. Moody (02:04:09):
Again, using the resources we have, just being smarter in our approach, we can do a lot to save a once thriving industry. Thank you.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:04:15):
Thank you.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:04:17):
Senator Kim.
Senator Kim (02:04:18):
Thank you, Chairman, Secretary. I wanted to just relay, I had a town hall. I had a fire captain show up to this town hall, somebody who worked at Ground Zero, and he is somebody who said he was diagnosed with cancer. He said he's on borrowed time, and he was livid, absolutely livid about what he said the administration gutting the World Trade Center Health Program. We've talked through some of these cuts that have happened before. Some staff cuts, some may be brought back on, the administrator cut. I just need to hear from you. I promised this fire captain I'd ask you about this. What in the world happened? Why was the staff cut for this program? What are we to expect going forward?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:05:05):
I restored the staff to that program.
Senator Kim (02:05:08):
Why was it cut to start with?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:05:16):
It was part of the overall budget cuts. Our agency was asked to make very, very serious budget cuts that were gonna be painful. Some of them should not have been made and that was one that should not have, and I reversed it.
Senator Kim (02:05:37):
Were you aware that the decision to cut NIOSH staff would cut that World Trade Center Health Program?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:05:45):
Well, my agency is the biggest agency in government. It's twice the size of the Pentagon. It represents about 20% of the US economy. We have hundreds of institutes and sub-agencies. We try to be as careful as we can about what we cut and what we didn't. We made a couple of mistakes.
Senator Kim (02:06:02):
I don't think you were trying to be as careful as you can. I mean, that's the problem that we've seen by rushing these decisions. This was, I know, early in your time there.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:06:12):
Senator, I understand. I understand that if you look at this from a distance, you'd say, "Why don't you just do this surgically and cut one person at a time?" This agency has grown so big so fast, and everybody who comes in says, "I'm gonna cut it down," and nobody's been able to do it. There was an understanding that the longer that you wait, the more the inertia kicks in. We had to act quickly so that we can do something for the American people that is lasting, and we understood that there would be some mistakes made and that we would go back and reverse them when they were made. But it was more important to do decisive action quickly that could eliminate the metastasizing of this agency, which was growing and growing, growing as our health declined.
Senator Kim (02:07:09):
So where is this going to land now? Can you tell us right now that the staffing of the World Trade Center Health Program will go back to where it was before you became secretary? Is that-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:07:19):
That program will continue. There will be continuity in that program. That's all I can tell you.
Senator Kim (02:07:23):
Continue, yes, but at full strength where it was before you were secretary?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:07:27):
The program itself will continue.
Senator Kim (02:07:29):
Well the fire captain also raised this issue about the National Firefighter Cancer Registry, also something I promised him I'd ask you about. Why was that shut down?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:07:43):
The Cancer … I don't know about that.
Senator Kim (02:07:45):
You don't know about this?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:07:46):
No.
Senator Kim (02:07:47):
Okay. Well look, what I'll just tell you is-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:07:48):
I'm happy to work with you on it though.
Senator Kim (02:07:50):
There's a National Firefighter Cancer Registry, and this is something that's part of NIOSH. Because of the cuts, when I go to the website as I am right now, it says, "The information on this page is not currently being updated and access to tool is limited. Firefighters can no longer enroll in the National Firefighter Registry for Cancer." So I just raise this because this is incredibly important, not just for those that were at Ground Zero, but just writ large across our nation to try to help our firefighters. So can you promise me that we will work together and try to get this back up and running as soon as possible?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:08:25):
I will work with you on this issue, Senator.
Senator Kim (02:08:27):
Yeah, look, I understand what you were saying when it comes to your prioritization. But I will tell you it is sending an absolutely disastrous message, especially to our firefighters. I mean, I hope that on the list of things in this Congress that we think are bipartisan or unanimous, it should be about supporting our heroes at the World Trade Center, especially when we have more firefighters who have died since 9/11 because of medical issues that they had working there at Ground Zero than those number of firefighters that died on September 11th. If we can't even agree on that, if that is not seen as a high enough priority to try to protect, then I'm worried about everything else that is more controversial, has less unanimity. So Secretary, I will follow up with you on the National Registry, and I do want a firm answer on you on what is the final staffing at the World Trade Center Health Program? And with that, I'll yield back.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:09:23):
Thank you, Senator.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:09:27):
Senator Murray has returned. She's asked request for 30 seconds to respond to what the secretary had responded to her.
Senator Scott (02:09:34):
May I ask a question?
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:09:35):
Yes, sir.
Senator Scott (02:09:36):
Does her 30 seconds take me down to four minutes and 30 seconds?
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:09:39):
No sir.
Senator Scott (02:09:40):
Okay.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:09:40):
I'll give you 5:30 if you want.
Senator Scott (02:09:42):
Even better. Thank you.
Senator Murray (02:09:44):
Mr. Chairman, thank you for accommodating and letting me speak here because Secretary Kennedy came back and said that my constituent that I spoke about earlier was not delayed by staffing cuts. First off, she is already enrolled in that clinical trial. It's not a question of eligibility. The issue, as I stated clearly, was the delay in care that she got. What you stated, Secretary Kennedy, is not true. I spoke with Natalie actually last night. She asked her NIH doctor directly why when she was informed of the delay, and her doctor at NIH said very plainly twice, her care was delayed because of staffing cuts. I would just, Mr. Chairman, I think it's important for the record to show my staff has put in inquiries with HHS leadership, and they've been unresponsive so far. Just to make it clear, this is just one case of many, but those are the facts.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:10:42):
Thank you.
Senator Murray (02:10:43):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:10:43):
Senator Scott.
Senator Scott (02:10:45):
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Secretary Kennedy, for being here with us today. I oftentimes hear you say the quote, "Happy to work with you." I will say that you said it to Senator Kennedy and as a person who's asked you to work on a number of topics, when you say happy to work with you, you've actually been a man of your word, and I truly appreciate that. We talked about the importance of sickle cell anemia and the research being done, and I invited you down to South Carolina, and you took me up on my offer. You came last month. I really appreciate you taking the time and investing the energy to talk about an issue that's critical to so many folks, specifically African-Americans.
(02:11:24)
As a guy that is thankful that we are working to eliminate diversity, equity, and inclusion in the federal government. I do not want some folks to think that all things racial are somehow DEI, and frankly sickle cell anemia is a classic example of something that has a racial nexus, but it's not diversity, equity and inclusion. It's just a basic fact that African-Americans 99.9% of the time are the folks that are suffering through sickle cell anemia. Frankly, if you go beyond sickle cell anemia, you find other diseases that have a consistent presence in minority communities. To that end, I think it's really important that we continue to work together on building on issues impacting minority and other communities. I would love, Secretary Kennedy, as you move through this reorganization that you are currently going through, I would like for you to answer the question, will you commit that programs involving minority health will continue and not get tied unnecessarily and inappropriately to DEI?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:12:28):
Yeah, absolutely. We will continue. I think that one of the minority health programs has been terminated, and it was one that was deeply embedded with the DEI ideology, but there are seven others that are gonna continue. I want to thank you for inviting me down to South Carolina. That was a wonderful trip. It was really … I got to witness a microcosm, a template for how medicine ought to be working.
Senator Scott (02:12:56):
Yes.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:12:57):
You had brought together under your leadership hospital systems, pharmaceutical companies and the biotech companies that developed this new technology for treating sickle cell and patients. They had all worked together to make it affordable so that South Carolina now has this extraordinary program where if you have sickle cell in South Carolina, you can get it 100% funding with I think it's 100% cure or close to it.
Senator Scott (02:13:28):
Yes. Very close to it. Thank you. I'll just ask the two questions as opposed to asking the preliminary to the questions. For all the parents of children with sickle cell, can you please just reassure them that the administration of Health for America will work on sickle cell and addressing minority health issues? It's a simple yes or no. Will the full budget and when it's released reflect funding at AHA for both the Office of Minority Health and Sickle Cell activities that used to be housed in CDC?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:13:58):
Yeah, absolutely you have my commitment. In fact, I had a company in this morning meeting with FDA that has a new technology that seems as effective and may be even more economical. I'm very, very excited, and I'm excited to show it to you, if it proceeds, if it makes it through the [inaudible 02:14:20] at FDA-
Senator Scott (02:14:21):
Excellent.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:14:21):
But yeah, absolutely, I'm going to continue to make that a priority of this agency.
Senator Scott (02:14:26):
Great. Let me change topics quickly with my minute and 45 seconds left since I was extended extra 30 seconds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciate the work that you're doing frankly, as it relates to addressing how our food supply contributes to chronic diseases, including the phasing out of petroleum-based as part of your Make America Healthy movement.
(02:14:46)
I'm really encouraged by the FDA's announcement last week approving three new natural color additive petitions. During your confirmation hearing process I shared your passion for shaking up the food industry, and you are truly doing just what you said you were going to do as it relates to food additives. Because of your bold actions at HHS regarding petroleum-based food additives, the food industry responded by getting rid of these dyes in favor of natural alternatives. Thank you for your work in bringing healthier food options for our kids. Can you talk about how you will use your position to continue to build on your work eliminating artificial food dyes to further improve the quality of food sold to Americans and our quest to make Americans healthier?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:15:38):
Yeah, I mean, one of the big areas of neglect has been linking specific food additives and food processes to the chronic disease epidemic. NIH has neglected that area of study. It is now the central focus of NIH and FDA looking at ultra processed foods, at sugars, and the 10,000 additives that are in our food that in nobody else's food in the world, and looking at the impact so that we can put accurate labeling on, and when they're really dangerous, we can revoke their authorizations under GRAS.
Senator Scott (02:16:25):
Thank you, sir.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:16:25):
Senator Blunt Rochester.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:16:26):
Thank you, Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Sanders and welcome Mr. Secretary. I have nothing personal against you, I don't even know you, but what I do know as the former Deputy Secretary of Health and Social Services in Delaware is how important your agency is to the lives of so many people in our country.
(02:16:51)
During the confirmation, your confusion of Medicaid versus Medicare did not instill a lot of confidence evidence. But today as you talk about these budget cuts being painful, I am reminded of Delawareans who have come up to me and cried and said, "Please don't let folks take away my Medicaid." Individuals with disabilities. While you talk about cutting this large large department, there are talks about including more things in the department from the Department of Education. So I'm concerned about that.
(02:17:32)
When we met in January, you committed to radical transparency and responding to all congressional inquiries within 30 days. Since then, we've sent dozens of letters, and to my knowledge, like Senator Hassan, I haven't received any responses. Given your stated commitment to transparency and your focus on efficiency and responsiveness in your opening comments, I think this is a great opportunity to get your commitment that you will respond to the letters from this committee and also an opportunity to maybe talk about a few of the things that I wrote to you about.
(02:18:13)
So let's begin with this letter. In March, I wrote to you expressing my concern about the delayed meeting of the federal vaccine experts, otherwise known as ACIP. The meeting of this committee is a key step in getting vaccines to millions of people from babies to seniors, and delays can have negative impacts on vaccine accessibility and affordability. While I'm glad that the meeting finally happened, we're quickly approaching flu season, and the CDC still hasn't adopted the April recommendations. I can understand the delay given that there seems to be no current CDC director. So in the spirit of radical transparency, my question is who is the acting CDC director?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:18:55):
The acting director was Susan Monarez, but she is now up for permanent director, and so she's been replaced by Matt Buzzelli.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:19:13):
Does this person have a medical background?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:19:18):
I believe-
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:19:18):
Or public health expertise?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:19:21):
He's a public health expert.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:19:23):
Public health expert. So the fact that the recommendations are kind of stuck and the fact that you kind of have-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:19:34):
Can I clarify something? ACIP does not do the flu shot. [inaudible 02:19:42].
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:19:41):
Yeah, I don't want to get into specifics of that.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:19:46):
The flu shot was sent-
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:19:48):
My question was more about do we have a CDC director, and then I want to enter into the record information about what harms could be caused until we get one.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:19:59):
Is that a request [inaudible 02:20:01]?
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:20:01):
[inaudible 02:20:01] shift gears-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:20:02):
[inaudible 02:20:02] on this committee.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:20:03):
This was my question. This is my time.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:20:06):
I'm the director.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:20:08):
We are senators, and so I don't want to have the same exchange that happened before with other people. I just want to ask my questions. I wanted to just shift gears. Your proposed compassionate budget would cut funding from multiple maternal and child health programs. I know as a new parent, I remember learning that my baby should sleep on their back. The NIH Safe to Sleep campaign, you've shuttered. After launching this campaign in 1994, the rate of sudden infant deaths dropped by 50%.
(02:20:39)
Many parents in this room maybe remember getting their children screened for hearing loss or rare diseases. That program has also been shuttered. You cut programs that collect data on IVF, maternal health, infant mortality, all while President Trump is calling himself the fertilization President. None of these policies are based in compassion. My only concern even, following up on Senator Kim's question, is understanding what goes into gutting a program that has increased the efficacy of parents being able to take care of their children?
(02:21:23)
I will … My time has expired, but I will just say again, a budget is a reflection of priorities. To me, this budget, the cuts to Medicaid that are talked about right now across in the House of Representatives are going to have real, like you said, painful impacts on peoples' lives. I hope there's some real compassion in the end, and I hope that you hear from our constituents as we are hearing from them as well. We will continue to try to fight for them. So I yield back.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:22:00):
Let me [inaudible 02:22:01] time to respond. I can assure you that I will act with compassion.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:22:06):
Senator Alsobrooks.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:22:08):
Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I'm talking. I'm over here. I've been sitting through this hearing all day today and have noted that you've been unable in most instances to answer any specific questions relating to your agency. I guess-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:22:25):
Because I haven't been given time.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:22:27):
Well, no, you have been given time, but the point of the matter is you've been unable to answer specific questions. Sir, you are the wrong person for this job. You had in this hearing today, the unmitigated gall to say at the beginning of your testimony that China is ahead of the United States in healthcare because China does not have DEI.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:22:50):
I didn't say that.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:22:51):
Well, we can roll back the tape. You absolutely said-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:22:53):
And you'll find I didn't say that.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:22:55):
That is absolutely what you said.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:22:57):
I was talking about science. I didn't say they're ahead of us, in some forms of science, certainly not in healthcare.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:23:04):
Well, we can roll back the tape. Nonetheless, let me go on with my questions and ask you this. You just heard about the Safe to Sleep campaign, and you have made cuts. You made it very clear here today you have no knowledge whatsoever of the absolutely amazing scientists and researchers who you have callously fired. You know nothing about the cuts to-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:23:24):
I didn't fire any working scientist, Senator.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:23:27):
That sir is not true either.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:23:30):
It is true.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:23:31):
It is not true.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:23:31):
It is true.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:23:31):
Let me ask you another specific question. The Safe to Sleep campaign, can you name, sir, which office the Safe to Sleep campaign operates out of?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:23:41):
Which campaign?
Senator Alsobrooks (02:23:43):
Well, that's the one that the senator just asked you about two minutes ago that prevents babies from dying in their sleep. A 30-year program inside your agency. You would agree that it's important-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:23:51):
I think it's part of HRSA or ACF. It's ACF.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:23:55):
No, actually it's in Health and Human Services, and I think again-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:24:01):
They're all within Health and Human Services. But the subdivision is ACF.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:24:05):
No, actually the name of-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:24:08):
Administration of Children and families.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:24:09):
No, let tell you what it is, the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. This is actually the one that your aunt, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, is the person who it's named after. You've noted just a moment ago, the senator reminded you that although this is a very important agency, prevents babies from dying, this is the same one you fired every single person in this office as of April the first. It is also-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:24:35):
As I said, there were no working scientists fired during the RIF.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:24:39):
We can bring you that information later, because what you just said is not true. Well, then the question also is in addition to firing the individuals who make sure babies don't die in their sleep, why did you cut funding and staff from the CDC's National Center on Birth Defects in Developmental Disabilities which supports the Special Olympics? Was that a mistake? I've heard you say you've made some mistakes today. Was that also a mistake?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:25:06):
We switched those programs. The Administration for Healthy America, they have not been cut.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:25:14):
Well, the funding has been cut, and this is one that oversaw the Special Olympics. Are you aware of that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:25:21):
We have not cut the Special Olympics.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:25:23):
You've cut the funding, and you also dismantled the Division of Reproductive Health and Women's Health and Fertility. You're aware of that, right?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:25:33):
We have right now we have 42 divisions that do maternal health, and we're consolidating them. Mainstream media has portrayed those as cuts, but they're not cuts, they're consolidations. It is ridiculous to have 42 divisions that are all supposed to be doing the same thing with their own administrators.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:25:56):
Well, let me ask you a question so it doesn't exist right now. It's been dismantled. That is a fact that that particular division. What do you plan to do in the-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:26:04):
There's 42 divisions on maternal health. We consolidated.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:26:07):
Let me finish what I'm saying here. The fact of the matter is you have dismantled it as we speak. Are you aware, what does the Assisted Reproductive Technology mean to you? Are you familiar with that?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:26:20):
Are you talking about IVF?
Senator Alsobrooks (02:26:23):
Well, it's Assisted Reproductive Technology. It's a division. Do you know what it does?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:26:31):
Is it part of NIH?
Senator Alsobrooks (02:26:35):
No. It's actually a part of your agency.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:26:39):
NIH is part of my agency, Senator. You should know that.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:26:41):
I do know that, but it's actually a part of … It's the CDC is where it is.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:26:45):
Okay. Then it's CDC.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:26:48):
Right. Okay. Let me just ask you, and again, these are all of the things you seem unfamiliar with. The ones, the programs that you've-
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (02:26:54):
You're unfamiliar that my agency, that NIH and CDC are part of HHS.
Senator Alsobrooks (02:27:02):
Oh, I absolutely know. NIH is in my county. I was there this past weekend with those researchers that you have fired, so I absolutely know where NIH is, sir, and don't need any help from you in knowing that. I cede the time. Thank you.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:27:15):
Senator Blunt Rochester, did you have something you wanted in the record? You mentioned something but didn't formally ask, and I want to make sure.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:27:25):
Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to introduce this into the record. It is the CDC has no acting director. Sources confirm.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:27:37):
Without objection, it's entered into the record.
Senator Blunt Rochester (02:27:38):
Thank you so much.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:27:39):
Senator Sanders.
Senator Sanders (02:27:40):
Ask unanimous consent to enter into the record 21 letters to groups raising concerns about the HHS reorganization, budget and RIFs. Also ask unanimous consent on behalf of Senator Murphy to enter two articles into the record.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:27:55):
Without objection. For any Senator wishing to ask additional questions, questions for the record will be due in 10 business days on May 28th at 5:00 PM. Thank you again, Secretary Kennedy, for being here. The committee stands adjourned.
Senator Sanders (02:28:12):
Thank you very much.
US Senator Bill Cassidy (02:28:13):
[inaudible 02:28:20].
