Kaitlan Collins (00:00):
Mr. Vice President, thank you for being here. And I should note where we are, we're in Boston at the JFK Library because you just received the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award last night for certifying the election results in 2020. And in your acceptance speech, you invoked the Constitution and you said it's the common ground on which we stand. How has that been a guiding principle for you?
Mike Pence (00:24):
Well, it's good to see you, Kaitlan, thanks. Thanks for traveling up here to the Kennedy Library. It was deeply humbling for me to receive the recognition, the Profile in Courage Award last night. As I shared with his family, President Kennedy was an inspiring figure since I was a little boy, and his eloquence and his example inspires me still. And so to be in any way associated with President Kennedy's legacy is something I'll cherish for the rest of my life.
(00:59)
But as I shared last night, the thing that I am more convinced of than ever is that as we face challenges in our country at home and abroad as we resolve differences between Americans, that the Constitution is the common ground on which we stand. I saw that firsthand over the last four years when people literally, from every political perspective, have stopped me on the street, walked up to me in airports, and simply expressed appreciation for the fact that, as I said last night, that I believe I did my duty under the Constitution on that fateful day to see to the peaceful transfer of power. The American people cherish our Constitution, they cherish our rich traditions in liberty, and I think recognizing that the people of this country will always stand on that common ground should be a great source of encouragement to all of us.
Kaitlan Collins (02:02):
Well, given that, when President Trump was asked if he thinks that he has to uphold the Constitution, he said, "I don't know." Is there any doubt in your view that the President must uphold the Constitution?
Mike Pence (02:14):
Well, we all take the same oath, which is we put our left hand on a Bible and raise our right hand, and we swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And despite our enduring differences about my duty four years ago, I believe President Trump understands that well. Honestly, Kaitlan, I saw a bit of that clip, and I think the President was simply saying that he didn't yet know what his lawyers' views of that question was. But I served alongside the president for four and a half years. We had a good working relationship. I'm proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration, and I believe the President understands what his responsibilities and duties are.
(03:05)
And also, I want to say that I have great confidence in Attorney General Pam Bondi, and in the team around the President. I think Tom Homan is a great lawman. As I wrote last week, I commend President Trump and the administration for the strong steps that they've taken to secure our border and reduce illegal immigration by 90%. I think these are important steps. It's what the American people were hoping to see, and I greatly welcome it.
Kaitlan Collins (03:31):
But in your view, there's no question of whether the president has to uphold the Constitution.
Mike Pence (03:36):
Oh, no, we all take, as my Marine Corps son reminded me a few days before January 6th, he said, "You took the same oath I took, Dad." It's the oath that people in the military, people in law enforcement, people in public life take, and I have every confidence the President understands his responsibilities.
Kaitlan Collins (04:01):
He didn't say it nearly as clearly as you did just there because he was asked about this argument that has been playing out when it comes to, you mentioned immigration, but a lot of this is in playing out, not on the southern border, but inside the courtroom and court fights. And when he was asked if he agreed that everyone on US soil deserves due process, he also said, "I don't know. I'm not a lawyer." Despite it being guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment, is it clear to you that everyone on US soil is afforded due process?
Mike Pence (04:31):
Well, I think that's one of the genius aspects of our system and of our Constitution, is that the protections and the liberties that are enshrined there are provided to persons in America, not just citizens in America, and I have every confidence that the administration understands that. The Supreme Court recently ruled that the President was fully acting within the law to use the Foreign Aliens Act to deport individuals from this country. They called for reasonable due process, recognizing that the safety of the American people is paramount. When people are in this country illegally, when people represent a threat to our communities, when they're engaged in criminal activities, there's a different standard.
(05:22)
And as I said, I have confidence in the administration. I have confidence in our Attorney General and also, as I said, confidence in Tom Homan, who has a long career, served in our administration with great distinction that they'll work through the issues of due process with the backstop of our courts. But the priority has to be to protect our communities. I mean, we have seen tragic consequences over the last four years from the open borders policies of the Biden administration. I think in many respects, President Trump's historic victory, that incredible comeback of a year ago last fall, was owing to the fact that the American people wanted to get back to the policies of our administration, not only on the economy, so believe on the world stage, and certainly in the way that we secured the southern border of the United States.
Kaitlan Collins (06:25):
But can they do both? Can't you protect communities and also provide people due process in your view?
Mike Pence (06:30):
You sure can, and I have confidence in our justice system. I have confidence in our courts that we'll do just that, Kaitlan.
Kaitlan Collins (06:38):
On the economy, you obviously were serving as vice president the last time President Trump was putting tariffs in place. He's gone much bigger and broader this time, and he seems to be downplaying any concerns that people have about a recession. Instead, he's arguing in the long run, his policies will be successful. Do you worry though that the tariffs he's putting in place could potentially lead the US into a recession?
Mike Pence (07:00):
Well, let me back up for a second and say that I really do believe that President Trump's historic re-election last year was in many respects, not just a reflection of a personality, but it was also that what I heard all over the country is that people wanted to get back to the policies of our administration, in addition to strong American leadership on the world stage, which we can get into in a minute. It also was that we cut taxes, rolled back regulation, unleashed American energy, but we also used targeted tariffs, particularly against China. After decades of trade abuses and intellectual property theft, we brought China to the table and achieved that 2020 phase one trade deal that was truly historic and was a beginning of changing the dynamic of our relationship with China. So now as I see this administration, I
Mike Pence (08:00):
I do have concerns that with the president's call for broad-based tariffs against friend and foe alike, that ultimately the administration is advancing policies that are not targeted at countries that have been abusing our trade relationship, but rather are essentially new industrial policy that will result in inflation, that will harm consumers, and ultimately harm the American economy. So again, I want to be clear, when it comes to China, when it comes to decades of trade abuses, my view always is free trade with free nations. That we ought to be engaging our trading partners across the free world to lower trade barriers, lower non-tariff barriers, and subsidies. But when it comes to authoritarian regimes, we ought to get tough, stay tough, and demand that they open their markets and respect our intellectual property.
Kaitlan Collins (09:01):
He dubbed it Liberation Day. And you wrote in reference to that, that the only thing that Americans had been liberated from were trillions of dollars in investments. Do you think he understands the impact that it could be having on regular Americans?
Mike Pence (09:14):
I think he does, look-
Kaitlan Collins (09:17):
But he's still doing it anyway in your view?
Mike Pence (09:22):
President Trump and I had many long conversations about trade in our four-and-a-half years. I strongly supported our administration's policies on trade, including the get-tough policies with Mexico and Canada that resulted in the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, the largest trade agreement in U.S. history. But we were well on our way. We'd renegotiated a trade agreement with South Korea. We were well on our way to a new trade agreement with Japan, with the UK, even the EU was in discussions, but it was all based on using his instinct that tariffs serve the American economy to bring our trading partners to the table to open up markets.
(10:04)
My concern now is I see the president following more of what I think has been his historic view, that at the end of the day, a certain minimum threshold of tariffs on all goods coming into the country will serve the American public and our economy. Some people believe that. I hold the view that trade means jobs and that if we were to erect even the 10% minimum tariff that is on today, if that was all that remained after this, I think ultimately it would stifle American growth, limit prosperity, drive up costs for American consumers, and we ought to be driving again toward that principle of free trade with free nations and standing tough, standing firm, on authoritarian regimes like China.
Kaitlan Collins (10:56):
So you think he's wrong on tariffs?
Mike Pence (10:59):
I do think this version of tariff policy, that's broad-based, indiscriminate, applies tariffs to friend and foe alike is not a win for the American people.
Kaitlan Collins (11:12):
One argument he's been making lately is that maybe children will have to make do with fewer toys, fewer dolls. The quote that he had yesterday was, "I'm just saying that they don't need to have 30 dolls. They can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have five."
(11:29)
Do you think the American people buy that argument?
Mike Pence (11:33):
I have two grown daughters. I have three small granddaughters, and look keeping dolls affordable, keeping our kids toys affordable, that really is part of the American dream. I remember recently the secretary of the treasury said that cheap goods was not a part of the American dream. Well, I'm somebody who spent almost my entire life in public service. We lived on our paycheck while we raised three kids and put three kids through college. Cheap goods are a big part of it, and I think we ought to be candid about that.
(12:05)
What I will give the president credit for is conceding the fact that his tariff policies will raise the cost of goods for consumers, whether it be toys, or pencils, or other products. And I appreciate him being forthright about that. I just think the American people cherish-
Kaitlan Collins (12:26):
But is he being forthright about that?
Mike Pence (12:27):
… their freedom to purchase their goods at the lowest possible cost. And that's not to say that at the end of the day, there are key industries that are important to have here. But I think the way we generate manufacturing jobs, I think the way we generate high-tech jobs, the way we generate the kind of jobs that will serve America's security and prosperity is by making the Trump tax cuts permanent, rolling back regulation, lowering the cost of energy across the board, and making America the most attractive place in the world to invest and create jobs.
Kaitlan Collins (13:07):
And obviously he came into office promising to lower prices. So if prices go up as a result of those policies, is that backtracking on a pretty big campaign promise?
Mike Pence (13:17):
Some prices have gone down, as the president has conceded, and prices will fluctuate. But I do have a concern that when the so-called 90-day pause comes off, that even the administration has conceded that there may be a price shock in the economy. And there may be shortages. Caitlin, there were reports over the weekend of maybe a 35% reduction in the number of imports headed our way across the Pacific.
(13:52)
And look, I think the American people are going to see the consequences of this. I think they'll demand a different approach. And I think that approach is free trade with free nations. Let's use the leverage, the threat of tariffs, to negotiate down trade barriers with free nations even while we stand firm with China and others.
Kaitlan Collins (14:13):
You have been very outspoken on foreign policy, especially when it comes to the war in Ukraine. You've traveled to Ukraine, met with President Zelensky. When President Trump says that he thinks President Putin wants peace, do you agree with that?
Mike Pence (14:28):
Well, I think if the last three years teaches us anything, it's that Vladimir Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine. And the fact that we are now nearly two months following a ceasefire agreement that Ukraine has agreed to, and Russia continues to delay and give excuses, I think confirms that point. Look, I've met Vladimir Putin. I have studied his leadership in Russia over the decades, and I really believe that Putin only understands power. And it's the reason why in this moment, we need to make it clear that the United States is going to continue to lead the free world to provide Ukraine with the military support they need to repel the Russian invasion and achieve a just and lasting peace.
(15:24)
The wavering support the administration has shown over the last few months, I believe, has only emboldened Russia. We continue to see their brutal assault on civilian populations claiming innocent lives. Now let me be clear, this is not just about Ukraine for me. I mean, I really do believe that if Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it's just a matter of time before he crosses a border where our men and women in uniform are going to have to go fight him. I mean, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia are all NATO allies.
Mike Pence (16:00):
And if Russia crosses those borders and we have a treaty obligation to engage them militarily. As we sit here at the Kennedy Library, I hold to that old Reagan doctrine that if you're willing to fight our enemies on your soil, we'll give you the means to fight them there so we don't have to fight him. And that's the principle we should be following here in giving President Zelenskyy and Ukraine the military support they need to repel and to stand down that brutal Russian invasion.
Kaitlan Collins (16:31):
You talked about studying Putin. There has been some concern or questions that maybe he's stringing the president along, that he's just slow-walking the negotiations with no intent of coming to the table. Do you share that view?
Mike Pence (16:44):
Well, I think President Trump is starting to suspect that. He said not long ago that he was concerned he might be, "Tapping him along," as he says, in that New York parlance. And I think he's right. If I was sitting with the president right now, instead of you, I would tell him, follow your instincts on this. That's who this guy is. And he only understands strength. I mean, look, there's a reason why Russia never even attempted to redraw international lines by force during our first four years. And that was because our administration rebuilt our military.
(17:25)
We took down Nord Stream 2, which was a tremendous blow to Russia. We gave approval to our military in Syria to take out 100 Russian mercenaries without a single American casualty. We fired cruise missiles, not once, but twice into Syria against Russia's ally, the Bashar al-Assad regime. Russia knew we were willing to use military force to defend our interest and our allies. And so different than the Bush administration, the Obama administration, and then the Biden administration, Vladimir Putin stayed across the border during our years. And it convinced me more than anything else that this is a moment for American strength and the pathway to peace is by an unwavering commitment to freedom.
Kaitlan Collins (18:13):
Given that, I just have to know what was going through your mind when you were watching that remarkable Oval Office meeting where President Trump and Vice President Vance had an incredibly contentious exchange with President Zelenskyy. What would you have done if you were in that room that day?
Mike Pence (18:29):
Well, I've been in a lot of contentious meetings in the Oval Office, just usually not on camera. There was one occasion where we had congressional leaders in, it got a little sporty. My own personal posture was to-
Kaitlan Collins (18:46):
But this is a-
Mike Pence (18:46):
… let the president have his way.
Kaitlan Collins (18:47):
… president who is fighting for his country. And you've met President Zelenskyy, so I wonder what you thought when you saw that.
Mike Pence (18:54):
Well, I thought it was regrettable. I thought President Zelenskyy was ill-advised to take his argument before the media in the Oval Office. And I thought it was unfortunate the way the president and the administration responded in that moment. But I'm encouraged all the way through the knee-to-knee meeting at the Vatican that it looks like we put the dialogue back together. Look, this really matters, I believe, not just for Ukraine, not just for Europe, but for America, for all the reasons that I said, Kaitlan. I think it's absolutely essential. And I'm very encouraged that the president secured this historic minerals deal with Ukraine. I think that's going to benefit the American people with rare earth minerals. But more important than that, it sends a deafening message to Moscow that America and Ukraine are here to stay.
Kaitlan Collins (19:58):
Yeah. Well, given contentious Oval Office meetings, the new prime minister of Canada is visiting tomorrow. The president has been saying that he's not kidding when he's talking about making Canada the 51st state. What advice would you give to the new prime minister as he's going into that meeting?
Mike Pence (20:15):
Well, I don't know that I would advise the Prime Minister of Canada. I worked with his predecessor. And look, I-
Kaitlan Collins (20:26):
Do you think Canada should be the 51st state?
Mike Pence (20:28):
I think Canada's been a great ally of ours whose soldiers have fought and died alongside Americans in every war since World War I. But I think I'd suggest to them that you come in and let your yes be yes and your no be no. And speak plainly to the president. I think President Trump respects strength, he respects people with conviction, and has the capacity to adjust. And I expect it'll be a good meeting.
Kaitlan Collins (21:05):
Do you think he's serious when he won't rule out military force to take Greenland?
Mike Pence (21:11):
Well, I think Greenland is enormously important to us and our national security. But the fact that we already have two military bases there and the ability to negotiate further is more than enough for us to satisfy that need and then otherwise allow the people of our two nations to discuss any arrangements going forward.
Kaitlan Collins (21:37):
Okay. So you don't think it needs to be taken over by military force?
Mike Pence (21:42):
I think we can address our security needs in Greenland by other means.
Kaitlan Collins (21:46):
Your organization, Advancing American Freedom, publicly opposed the nomination, and it turns out the confirmation, of RFK Jr. as the HHS Secretary. The United States right now is its single largest measles outbreak in 25 years. Do you trust his leadership in a moment like this one?
Mike Pence (22:06):
Well, as you know, Kaitlan, I'm pro-life, I don't apologize for it. And the very idea that a Republican president would nominate an abortion rights supporter to lead the Department of Health and Human Services was just unacceptable to me. Policies regarding the sanctity of life, regarding conscience protections all flow through HHS. And I had those concerns. Evidenced recently with the secretary's FDA chief who said, despite promises that were made in the confirmation hearings, that they have no plans to even look into the harmful effect of the abortion pill on women across the country. And so that was the core of our concern. But as I said, I've got four grandchildren, going on five, coming this fall.
Kaitlan Collins (23:04):
Congratulations.
Mike Pence (23:05):
Thank you. And measles is a very serious disease, particularly for small children. And we should send no message across America other than to encourage parents at the time that young children are able to be vaccinated to get that measles vaccine. It's a completely preventable disease. And I do have concerns that we have a secretary at HHS who has had a lifetime career of undermining public confidence in vaccines. We should have the opposite and I hope that we continue to hear voices around the country that speak into this moment for the sake of our kids and our grandkids.
Kaitlan Collins (23:51):
I mentioned the reason that we're here and why you are getting this award, and it's because of how you acted and what you did or, to the president's sugaring, did not
Kaitlan Collins (24:00):
… due on January 6th. And when you were recounting that day during your speech last night, the line stood out to me where you said, the only heroes that you saw that day were wearing uniforms, meaning the officers who were there protecting the capitol and protecting you and others. What should it say to the American people then that President Trump pardoned the people who were convicted of assaulting police officers that day?
Mike Pence (24:25):
Over the last four years, I've had people come up and thank me for what I did that day. But I've said 100, the only heroes I saw that day were wearing uniforms. When we were evacuated down to the parking garage underneath the Senate, I literally saw Capitol Hill Police coming and going through that area, some of whom had injuries but none of whom flinched. It was clear that our Capitol Hill Police, the security at our Capitol, was caught off guard by the massive riot that ensued. But their courage, their bravery should be heralded for generations to come because they secured the Capitol and allowed us to reconvene the very same day and complete our work under the Constitution. I will tell you, I was deeply disappointed to see President Trump pardon people that engaged in violence against law enforcement officers on that day. The President has every right under the Constitution to grant pardons, but in that moment I thought it sent the wrong message.
Kaitlan Collins (25:41):
J.D. Vance is now in the role that you had as Vice President, and when he was on the campaign trail, I asked him if it gave him any pause to take this job, given how your relationship with the President so changed. He told me he was, "Extremely skeptical that Mike Pence's life was ever in danger." He said, "I think in politics people like to really exaggerate things from time to time." Would you like to respond to that?
Mike Pence (26:11):
Well, I would just say, I'll leave that to the judgment of history.
Kaitlan Collins (26:16):
But do you feel like your life is in danger?
Mike Pence (26:18):
There was never a moment that I felt physically threatened in that day. I have great confidence in the Secret Service and I had great confidence in the Capitol Hill Police. It's one of the reasons when they evacuated me from the Senate floor, Kaitlan, that I just went to my office across the hallway because I was confident that they would secure the building quickly, not knowing the sheer size of the riot and that was unfolding.
(26:46)
But I've always told my kids, "The safest place in the world is to be in the center of God's will," and I knew I was where I was supposed to be doing what I was supposed to be doing. And my focus that day and my memories of that day will always be of the heroes in uniform. But also the fact, as I said last night, that it wasn't any one person that saw us through that day, it was that the elected representatives in both chambers, in both political parties, reconvened and completed their work under the Constitution. As I said on the Senate floor, when we reconvened, "The world will witness the resilience of our democracy once again." And I believe they did that day. But for my part, I'll always be grateful for God's grace seeing us through that moment.
Kaitlan Collins (27:43):
It was nearly 10 years ago, almost, hard to believe that you said on the campaign trail in 2016, "Character matters to the presidency and Donald Trump will bring the highest level of integrity to the highest office in the land. You can count on it." Do you still feel that way today?
Mike Pence (28:02):
Well, I want to be very clear. I'm very proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration, President Trump and I had a good professional and personal relationship for four and a half years. I surprise people sometimes when I tell them that we never had a cross word between us until those fateful days at the end. We're very different men, we have different ways of expressing ourselves and in some ways different priorities. But we had a great working relationship and I think we delivered for the American people. For me, ultimately character in public life is about doing what you said you're going to do. And we did that in our four years.
(28:42)
And I will tell you that in the early days of this new Trump administration, I think the President in many ways has been doing that again. He's delivered on securing the border, he's restored morale in our military. We're now recruitment in our military having been flagging over the last several years is now exceeding goals in every branch of our service. We took the fight to the Houthis on their soil, on our terms, and fought back after the Biden administration had largely abandoned the region. And I think all those steps give evidence of the fact that President Trump is keeping his word to the American people just as we did.
(29:25)
Where I'm going to continue to seek to be a voice, as a happy warrior and the conservative that I've always been, is where I see this Trump administration departing from the successful policies of our administration, whether it be making the tax cuts permanent when some in and around the administration are talking about actually raising the top marginal rate, a move that would be an enormous tax increase on small business owners across this country. Where I see the wavering support for Ukraine, it contradicts the strong leadership on the world stage that President Trump and our administration provided in our first four years. And where I see a marginalizing of the right to life, both in personnel and in policy decisions, that's different from our administration-
Kaitlan Collins (30:16):
What do you attribute those changes to?
Mike Pence (30:17):
… we stood strong for the right to life.
Kaitlan Collins (30:20):
What do you attribute those changes to? If those were the policies when you were there, and this is what's happening now, is it because you're not there? Is it staffing or is it the President himself that's changed?
Mike Pence (30:31):
Well, I can't account for it. I know that it's true to say the personnel is policy. We had a diversity of views around the President. His leadership style was to put a lot of people around that Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, hear a lot of ideas, and I hope even from the outside that I and others can maybe give the President another thought, remind him of the policies that succeeded in our administration, that created security and prosperity and strengthened the values of the American people, preserved our liberties and our courts. And whatever the future holds for me, I'm going to try and be a consistent voice for those conservative values that I think are not only the right policy for the Republican Party, but I think they're the best way forward for a boundless future for the American people.
Kaitlan Collins (31:26):
Vice President Pence, thank you for your time.
Mike Pence (31:27):
Thank…
