FAA Budget Hearing

Chairman Womack (00:00):

... now consistently exceeding pre-pandemic levels across our aviation system. Aviation remains a critical driver of economic growth. Commercial aviation contributes more than a trillion dollars to our economy and new technologies promise to deliver more opportunities while improving the quality of life for all Americans. I'm particularly excited to see how advancements in the aviation sector provide more opportunities in areas of high growth like the district that I represent in Northwest Arkansas.

(00:33)
However, rapid growth brings challenges and we've seen that very subject in the last few months. We must acknowledge the recent aviation accidents that have renewed scrutiny of our safety systems. The tragic crash that occurred on January 29th at Reagan National is still fresh on our minds. A sobering reminder of real-life consequences when multiple parts of our National Airspace System falter. Incidents like this along with the Alaska Airlines door plug failure, multiple near misses in the air and on the ground, and a slew of general aviation accidents make it clear that our work to strengthen oversight, training and coordination is far from finished. Safety must remain our shared unyielding priority.

(01:22)
Our airspace is becoming more crowded and more complex. The infrastructure we rely on is reaching the end of its useful life. This committee must take a hard look at how we fund the maintenance and replacement of infrastructure and equipment that create the backbone of our aviation system. We must work together to ensure that all aviation can flourish while maintaining the highest possible standards of safety and efficiency for the millions of passengers who fly every day. Your extensive aviation experience will be vital as we navigate these issues together. I know a safe and efficient National Airspace System is your number one priority. It is also ours.

(02:05)
The president's request for FAA is 22 billion, a 5% increase above the enacted '25 level with much of the increase going toward operation and facilities and equipment, including your new Project Lift, which I'm sure you will tell us about in your testimony. However, this budget doesn't contemplate the scale of improvements Secretary Duffy has announced that are necessary. More detail and information will be required for us to fully consider this eventual request. We cannot repeat the NextGen boondoggle where we allowed a program to drag on for decades while technology outpaced its implementation. If this committee is asked to consider additional funding with the expectation the FAA can complete procurement or deployment through innovative contracts, the FAA must do better than it did under IIJA. From that bill, $2.5 billion for facilities and equipment remains unobligated.

(03:04)
Mr. Rocheleau, as we develop our '26 bill, I intend to work with you, your colleagues at FAA, and Secretary Duffy, along with the aviation community to ensure that we continue to support the safest, most complex aviation system in the world. Mr. Administrator, I look forward to our discussion today and hearing from you about the FAA's current and pending work. We want to know how you plan to modernize the air traffic system, address staffing challenges, and encourage safety advancements and innovation. I'm confident that we can work together to support the critical missions of the Federal Aviation Administration.

(03:44)
Now I'd like to recognize my good friend and the ranking member from South Carolina, Mr. Clyburn for his opening remarks.

Mr. Clyburn (03:50):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Acting Administrator Rocheleau. I want to thank you for your service as you assume leadership of the FAA under the very difficult circumstances. The purpose of today's hearing is to examine how the FAA is using its current resources and the proposed fiscal year 2026 funding to advance aviation safety.

(04:17)
As Chair Womack just mentioned, last month we had an opportunity to discuss with Secretary Duffy some of the administration's proposed investments to modernize the air traffic control system. The discussion centered around the air traffic control modernization plan released last month by this administration. While the plan is a great conversation starter, it ignores the realities of cuts to FAA's staff, fair competition, overall costs, and most importantly, how we pay for it. The FAA's 2026 budget request provides nominal increases to backfill our air traffic control workforce and sustain FAA's aging facilities and technology, all of which I support.

(05:11)
While there are proposed resources set aside for modernizing the FAA, I'm concerned that they come at the expense of advancing FAA's aviation safety research, engineering and development programs, which are essential investments to determine the best modernization and safety solutions for the National Airspace System. And though the 2026 budget request proposes hiring up to 2,500 new air traffic controllers, it does not consider challenges with academy success or retention rates and early retirement among our existing controller's workforce.

(05:59)
Meanwhile, with the constant shifts in tariffs, America is losing the confidence of our partners to deliver and improve air traffic control system and cost-effective aviation manufacturing. American businesses, including manufacturers and suppliers, face uncertainty and increased costs as they are left in the dark. Thousands of jobs, many in high-skilled manufacturing and engineering depend on the ability of United States aircraft manufacturers and suppliers to access global markets on fair and reliable terms. This is especially true for manufacturing in my own district and home state of South Carolina.

(06:53)
Our aviation supply chair system requires certainty from our global partners and the trust that we can deliver state-of-the-art transportation and airports. Mr. Secretary, I strongly support robust investments in aviation, but we need to know that the administration's supplemental air traffic control plan and budget request is backed by action and based on current realities. I remain concerned that we have yet to see the full potential of existing FAA resources being used to address our most immediate threats brought forward by aging technology and staffing shortfalls at the FAA. Mr. Chairman, it is our duty on the subcommittee to continue helping the FAA modernize this air traffic control system and in a year where we need to see more robust investments in FAA, my hope is that it does not come at the expense of strengthening safety for other modes of transportation or keeping our seniors and working families housed.

(08:06)
I look forward to learning more about how we can work together to support the advancement of the FAA. I look forward to hearing your testimony and yield the balance of my time. And I yield back.

Chairman Womack (08:20):

Thank you Mr. Clyburn. We are joined today by the overall chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, my good friend, Tom Cole. Even though he's still writhing a little bit in pain from a pair of very difficult losses by the Oklahoma Sooners this weekend in baseball and softball, though your gymnastics program is still world-class and-

Chairman Cole (08:42):

Thunder looks pretty good too.

Chairman Womack (08:44):

And Thunder's not bad. Yeah. So thank you Mr. Chairman for joining us today and I'll recognize you for any opening comments you have made.

Chairman Cole (08:51):

Well, thank you, and since you brought up an unrelated matter, I just want to explain those two untimely losses by our OU Women. We have won the World Series four consecutive times. Of course it's hosted in Oklahoma City, and so we got the team together and said, "If we win every year, they're just going to quit coming. So maybe we need to lighten up, let somebody else slip through once, and then you young ladies," because it's a pretty new team, six new starters out of nine. We graduated a class that had won the championship every single year they were in college. So we're going to let Texas Tech of Texas enjoy one and then they'll come back, and we'll start all over again. But thank you. We're awfully proud of those young women. They are amazing.

(09:37)
First, thank you Mr. Chairman, I appreciate it. Chairman Womack, and thank you Ranking member Clyburn. Welcome, Administrator Rocheleau and thank you for coming for us today, and honestly for your decades of public service in uniform and as a career civil servant as well. We appreciate, in the private sector, but you've been around aviation for a long time, done a lot of great things for our country and I think you were a superb appointment.

(10:02)
As we start the fiscal year Mr. Administrator, I'm focused on providing effective fiscal support to the FAA, and we know you need resources to ensure the safety of our national airspace, support American manufacturers and innovators, and invest in infrastructure that improves the efficiency and reliability of our aviation system. This subcommittee will support your efforts as we develop our fiscal year 2026 budget. This will include addressing some of our aging air traffic infrastructure. It's no longer sustainable in its current form and could become an operational risk.

(10:38)
I'll reiterate what Chairman Womack stated earlier. Our commitment to safety and security will be steadfast and unified. We will begin to do this within the confines of the president's budget while we wait to receive your broader air traffic control proposal. Now, as you know, air traffic infrastructure isn't the only challenging aspect of our National Airspace System. Personnel levels a also a systemic concern, and in particular, the men and women who control our skies that are trained at the sole FAA Academy located in Oklahoma City. The training provided in Oklahoma City is unmatched, and I appreciated having the opportunity to speak with you several weeks ago about your efforts to improve the completion rate of the talented students who attend the academy.

(11:25)
As we discussed, the academy must be successful, and to be successful, it must be properly resourced with the latest technology and the best instructors. In FY24, while I was privileged to be the chairman of this subcommittee, I worked to ensure the academy received a significant increase for air traffic and technical operations training enhancements to strengthen throughout the air traffic control system for our trainees. This committee also ensured that in our final FY25 appropriation, we provided funding to train an additional 2000 air traffic controllers, and I understand your budget request for FY26 contemplates pushing that number potentially to as high as 2,500. As we advance the FY26 appropriation, I look forward to working with you and the administration and my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to fund critical safety missions and transportation infrastructure needs for the country.

(12:23)
With that, let me just add, this is a genuinely bipartisan subcommittee and all of us are in the skies together. We all have friends and family that are flying. We all are concerned about rail safety, we're concerned about road safety, and so I don't find much partisan division here. It's really more about figuring out as Mr. Clyburn said, ranking member, what's the right thing to do here? What are the investments we should be making? And to that, we're going to rely very heavily on your judgment and your recommendations, and one way or another, we're going to make the investments that we need to make.

(12:59)
Again, I don't like to look at what we did in '24 and '25 as kind of one-hit wonders. They need to be a sustained process of investment improvement that's going to stretch over a number of years. And I couldn't be prouder of the members of this subcommittee on both sides of the aisle because I know they've got that kind of commitment. I've worked with a lot of them in different capacities before. So I think we have the opportunity in this subcommittee to do something really significant to improve the lives of the American people and the safety of the American people, and I think it's something we can do in a bipartisan fashion. So we look forward to your leadership and your cooperation and helping our committee get to where it needs to go.

(13:38)
With that, Mr. Chairman, I'll yield back.

Chairman Womack (13:40):

Thank you Mr. Chairman, and I associate myself with your remarks. It is a shared responsibility and we have a lot of work to do to ensure the safety of the flying public.

(13:54)
Mr. Rocheleau, your full written testimony will be inserted into the record. The chair will now recognize you for your opening comments before we move to questions and answers.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (14:06):

Thank you sir. Chairman Cole, Chairman Womack, Ranking member Clyburn, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss the administration's fiscal year 2026 budget request for the Federal Aviation Administration. The FAA's mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world. To fill this ongoing responsibility, the president's budget invests in the future of the National Airspace System or as we refer to it, the NAS, by requesting 22 billion in the '26 fiscal year. When coupled with the $5 billion in previously enacted advanced annual appropriations, this $27 billion commitment will enable the FAA to fund critical investments needed to keep pace with industry and enhance the safety and efficiency of our National Airspace System.

(15:05)
As part of the administration's broader modernization effort to build a state-of-the-art air traffic control system, the FAA is requesting a historic $4 billion for our facilities and equipment account to enable the agency to address emerging challenges and technological advancements while preserving the integrity of long-standing capabilities.

(15:29)
The president's budget includes $1 billion request to accelerate the modernization of the FAA's telecommunications infrastructure. The current infrastructure is dependent on outdated technology, which is facing discontinuance from service providers and serves as a significant operational risk to NAS services. The agency has pivoted to a new initiative to transition rapidly and safely from point-to-point hardware circuits into a modern internet protocol-based telecommunications network. This new initiative spearheaded by Secretary Duffy under President Trump's leadership will ensure long-standing stability and the operational efficiency needed to both support existing operations, future needs, and to meet ever-evolving cybersecurity and resiliency requirements.

(16:25)
The president's budget also requests $450 million to initiate the radar replacement program, a multi-year effort to replace the FAA's aging radar systems. Now, the FAA owns and operates hundreds of radar systems that are essential detection and monitoring tools for air traffic controllers. These critical systems are facing more frequent structural deficiencies and maintenance-related issues as they get older causing increased outages, delays and risks to the system. The radar replacement program will invest in more advanced radar technology to enhance surveillance capabilities and avoid delays for the flying public.

(17:08)
Now the FAA is in the midst of a multi-year hiring and training surge to ensure we have the level of certified air traffic controllers needed to meet current and future traffic demands. In February, Secretary Duffy announced our plan to increase recruitment of the best and the brightest air traffic controllers by streamlining the hiring steps and increasing the starting salary for academy trainees by 30%. This budget request includes $97.3 million to further supercharge the controller workforce and train up to 2,500 new air traffic controllers in FY2026. To achieve this goal, the FAA is filling every seat at the academy, bolstering the Enhanced Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative and offering more opportunities for experienced military controllers to join our workforce. By addressing the ongoing air traffic controller shortage through this multipronged approach, the FAA is working to improve staffing levels and increase the safety of the NAS.

(18:14)
Members of the committee, every day, the FAA manages more than 45,000 flights that connect almost 20,000 U.S. airports, and I appreciate the President and the Secretary's strong support as I proudly lead the dedicated men and women of the FAA. This budget request upholds our commitment to maintain the safest airspace in the world by investing in our nation's infrastructure and our workforce to meet the challenges of tomorrow. We look forward to your support in ensuring the United States remains a global leader in aviation. I thank you for the opportunity to be here today and I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Womack (18:53):

Thank you very much. As I said, your full written testimony will be included into the record and we will now begin a period of questions and answers. We will again enforce a five-minute rule here, so members are advised to get as quickly to your questions as you possibly can so that you can maximize the amount of time we have available. I'm going to recognize that myself for five minutes.

(19:19)
The House and Senate provided about $3.6 billion in our FY25 bills. They never got across the finish line, so the CR that we're currently under froze this level at 3.2 billion, I think. Another reason why we should not be living on continuing resolutions, we lose ground. I have a question about sustainability versus modernization, and unfortunately you can't do one exclusively. Secretary Duffy's outlined his plans for modernization, but you still have to operate a system that you currently have. How does that work and how difficult will it be for us to achieve the overall goals of modernization, while at the same time providing the sustainable safety systems that we currently have in place and how the FAA is best equipped to do that?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (20:31):

Thank you, sir, for the question. So our budget request in fact incorporates the needs to continue to sustain what we have in place today. But clearly we've seen evidence where the equipment today is, as I stated in my testimony, starting to degrade in our ability to operate the system. And we see outages and delays associated with that equipment. I'm confident in our ability to maintain the system. In fact, I would just share with you all that we had a record-breaking Memorial Day weekend with respect to our ability to manage safely the operations in the National Airspace System.

(21:14)
And at the same time, it is imperative that we invest in the future of our air traffic system. We're spending over 90% of our funding right now just on maintaining, sometimes band-aiding some of the equipment that we have. And so the Secretary's bold vision under obviously the President's direction is to make sure that we're able to build a new air traffic system to put in place to manage what we're dealing with today and the increase in traffic safely, and at the same time, anticipate the needs we need going forward as we think about things like drone integration, advanced air mobility and the like.

(21:54)
And so the budget that we're proposing today, in fact sustains the operations that we have, and at the same time, enables our success in the future as we think about the new systems that we need to come online.

Chairman Womack (22:08):

You mentioned the $4 billion that's in the request for facilities and equipment. How much of that is strictly sustainability versus how much of that is actually going to go toward the overall cost associated with full modernization?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (22:25):

And you referenced earlier the Project Lift, 1 billion of our request is going to go directly to advancing in an expedited fashion that transition from what we call copper wire or TDM to an internet-based IP or fiber optic transition. That will enable the resiliency, the efficiency of the system and the ability to make sure that as we increase operations, that we'll be able to do that in a consistent manner without the outages and the struggles that we've been facing as we've seen in the news just recently.

Chairman Womack (22:58):

Given your time at the FAA, going all the way back to nearly the turn of the millennium when we started this NextGen project, and we've spent billions of dollars on NextGen, how would you grade, and you heard in my opening remarks about the fact that we got bogged down and the speed of technology was not matching the speed of our ability to improve. How would you grade, if you were giving a letter grade to the NextGen project, how would you grade it and how much of that $14 billion that we spent on NextGen could have been better spent? Put it that way.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (23:44):

I would certainly agree with that premise that it could have been better spent as I think about the advancements. And today, we do have systems in place that NextGen generated with respect to things like Datacomm, which is texting between the pilots, the controllers and the pilots. So some of those capabilities came online. At the same time, let's recognize that for a variety of reasons, that vision was not fully realized, which is why I pivot to what we're trying to do now with this new and bold plan.

(24:16)
When we think about the future, when we think about what we're sustaining today and where we need to go with respect to new technologies, safety technologies and efficiency technologies, this is what we're looking for as we think about this new air traffic modernization plan.

Chairman Womack (24:32):

You didn't give it a letter grade, but can I assume that you're not advocating that it be on the honor roll?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (24:40):

Yes, sir. I can agree to that.

Chairman Womack (24:43):

Fair enough. Mr. Clyburn.

Speaker 1 (24:55):

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Mr. Clyburn (24:55):

Relatively small state, but in my congressional district, you're going to find Shaw Air Force Base, headquarters of the 9th Air Force and headquarters of the 3rd Army. Military, we have the Marine Air Station, the Columbia Airport, the Charleston International Airport. All of those air traffic controllers have been in the visit with me about the challenges that they have trying to maintain safety with the way things are currently organized or being implemented. And they're really concerned about the shortages, the resignations, the problem we have getting trained, have traffic controllers up to snuff. How do you plan to do more with less?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (26:03):

Well, I would start by saying, I believe the FAA can be a more efficient organization. I think that is the charge to me by the Secretary, and I believe we can accomplish that goal. We have an amazing, amazing workforce that comes to work every day, as I mentioned, during the Memorial Day holiday is one example of that. But I think to the center of your question, what we're talking about is the ability to continue to sustain what we have to today and at the same time, accelerate whether it's on the controller workforce. And by the way, it's not just the controller workforce. We are also talking about maintainers, safety inspectors, engineers, all of the people that go into our ecosystem to make sure there's a safe and efficient air transportation system.

(26:48)
And while we're looking at the workforce piece of it, we're also looking at modernizing the equipment that is so essential to what your constituents are talking about with respect to safe and efficient airspace in the system. So I think we're approaching it from a multipronged approach. Part of that has to do with the workforce. And again, supercharging the controllers is so critical to our ability to manage traffic we have today and look at what we expect to see in the future.

Mr. Clyburn (27:17):

Well, looking at your plan, I'm still trying to figure out the budget numbers, and the amount of money being requested to do this seem not to line up with the amount of work that you've got to do, especially in keeping with all of the lack of numbers coming into the system. And I have not seen what I consider to be a definitive plan on how you're going to increase the number of air traffic controllers. I forgot the number, some ungodly number in terms of the shortages that we currently have.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (28:04):

Yes, sir. So this year we are projecting to meet 2000 air traffic controllers through our system. Just a few months ago, we realized we may not hit that. Thanks to the Secretary and his leadership, we have supercharged that. So we will get 2000 people into the training academy, which by the way, Chairman Cole, is a gem for us when we think about what we're talking about there in Oklahoma City and the ability to put controllers through that system.

(28:34)
As it relates to the technology plan, again, the billion dollars is to make sure that we have that resiliency in the fiber optics so that there is good connectivity between the facilities themselves, and then the additional monies would go to in fact accelerating the radar replacement program. So that is the fundamental. When we talk about the larger plan that the Secretary so artfully outlines, that is where I think it's going to be critical that we work with Congress to understand, to lay out our plan. So going from TDM to IP, so copper wires to fiber optics, when we think about going to new radar replacements, new radios for the controllers so they can talk to the pilots, and then of course facilities. All of those things are going to go into this approach to modernize the airspace system.

Mr. Clyburn (29:24):

Well, thank you. My time is almost expired, but I would like to know at some point, Mr. Chairman, whether or not we plan to utilize those colleges and universities to supplement that, which I know is great training out of Oklahoma City. However, in terms of numbers, the volume we need, I think, we ought to take a look at those college and universities.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (29:46):

Yes, sir.

Chairman Womack (29:47):

I thank the ranking member. I now recognize the chairman of the overall committee of the Appropriations committee, Mr. Cole from Oklahoma.

Chairman Cole (29:54):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And probably shouldn't say this before I get into my questions

Chairman Cole (30:00):

... in front of somebody as shrewd as my friend, the ranking member. But when I think ahead about negotiations that will come if we're going to avoid a CR and get to a successful conclusion, I always look where are the things in common that the two sides can set aside differences on and come around. I think this is one of those things.

Speaker 2 (30:20):

Absolutely.

Chairman Cole (30:21):

We're all very interested in what it takes to fly safely, it's important commercially, it's much more important obviously in terms of lives. So I would just advise you and our former colleague to be ready to take advantage of that opportunity down the road. I think that this is one where we will work together and try and make a significant investment to move us materially toward the goals that you've outlined. Your budget proposal increases facilities and equipment account in order to upgrade the system for air traffic facilities. Does your request include improvements at the academy to ensure that the students are actually training on the equipment that you intend for them to be using in the years ahead?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (31:08):

Yes sir, it does. In fact, as we talked about recently, our effort to supercharge the hiring through the academy with controllers, what we've been able to do, and again, giving credit to the secretary for accelerating and encouraging us to work hard, we didn't think we were going to hit the 2000 controllers this year, so we've shortened the timeframe by which we hire those controllers, academy attendees, through the system by five months. In fact, as a quick story, we went through, as we look for the best and brightest, we had an individual recently that in 44 days, from start to finish, got into the academy, got an academy date, so that system is really working. Now that's not going to be the case for everyone, but that is encouraging there. So the budget request we have does in fact accommodate and consider what we want to do with respect to getting up to 2,500 people through the Oklahoma City Academy this year, in addition to the enhanced CTI trainings that we're doing with the universities around the US.

Chairman Cole (32:19):

I think that's terrific, and just toward that goal of reaching 2,500 when you and I had our visit, we also talked about the failure rate because we lose about a third of those students over the course of this, and in some ways you'd expect that it's a pretty rigorous, very demanding profession, what might look attractive at the beginning as you get into it may not be your cup of tea as you really understand how difficult and challenging this job is. But having said that, I'm curious about, number one, as you stair step up, anything additional you need, and again, I'm like you, I commend the secretary for increasing that pay and making this a more attractive option for the kind of people we want coming there, but what are you thinking about doing in addition to help those students that are there so that we have a higher success rate and don't lose them?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (33:14):

Thank you for the question. So as part of this initiative, I would highlight two efforts that we put in there. First and foremost is, as we think about the training itself and the first roughly five weeks of training, there's a basic course, so it's what we'll call air traffic 101, that we do not need certified professional controllers to teach, and so therefore we have the ability to bring in professional instructors to help that. So we're augmenting the instructor workforce there at the academy, first and foremost, and we think that will be helpful too for the evaluation period as people get closer to graduation there. In addition to that, one of the things that the secretary had heard when in his visit back in February I believe it was to Oklahoma, was in fact some of the students were looking for a little extra time on the weekend for training.

(34:04)
And so we are now offering tutoring on the weekend with the use of high-definition simulators, which actually is going to improve probably up to 30% of the graduation rate because at the end of the day, to get the throughput, to get the controllers to the boards that we need, we want to make sure that that failure rate of 35% roughly these days because it is an incredibly demanding profession, that we get that down to say the 25%, maybe even lower than that. So those two initiatives alone, we're trying to make sure that we get a better throughput and a better graduation rate.

Chairman Cole (34:38):

That's great. Well, my time's almost up and I certainly respect the chairman on that. Just one, it's not a question, but I'm sure you're thinking given the fact you're going to increase, as you implied, the number of instructors, because if we're going to move it up, you got to have more people on the ground. You're comfortable you can do that, and that's basically a yes or no?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (34:58):

Yes, sir.

Chairman Cole (34:58):

Okay, thank you very much. Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Womack (35:01):

I thank the gentleman from Oklahoma. And not to belabor the point necessarily on air traffic control, but it's one thing to get a certified air traffic controller, but it's a whole other thing to certify them or to prepare them for whatever assignment they're going to, and that could be a pretty lengthy process as well. Is that correct?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (35:18):

That's correct, sir. It can take anywhere from two to three years to get a certified professional controller through the system and qualified at the facility they're going to be working at.

Chairman Womack (35:29):

Ms. Torres.

Mrs Torres (35:37):

Thank you Chairman, and thank you for being here. Also, as I mentioned to Secretary Duffy a few weeks ago, we are seeing a troubling rise in near misses, including navigation systems shutting down themselves while a plane is attempting to land. These are serious close calls that could have ended in terrible disasters. These aren't isolated incidents, they signal a deeper issue with the FAA's ability to provide the strong, consistent safety oversight that our aviation systems demands. Pilots today are operating in increasingly complex conditions where even small breakdowns, mechanical issues, miscommunication, ground movement risks, can easily escalate a situation. It's a lot of stress for them. That is why we need an FAA that is fully staffed, well-supported and fully focused on its mission that is protecting lives. I assume that continues to be its number one mission.

(36:50)
Acting administrator, you recently said in a town hall that the FAA will be leaner, and that statement in the current environment is a little bit alarming. A leaner FAA raises real concerns about the capacity and readiness. You took some responsibility for what was missed in the recent DCA incident saying, "I take that seriously and I take that on myself. I returned to the FAA just two months, two months ago, and I care about the National Airspace System for safety and the workforce." I sent you my questions in advance so that there would be no concerns or mistakes. What immediate steps is the FAA taking to reduce near misses and protect safety on the ground and in the air?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (37:47):

Thank you for the question. Yes, first and foremost, let me just start by saying the system is incredibly safe, and that matters to me personally, it matters to my leadership team that I meet with on a weekly basis, and it matters to the 45,000 people that come to work every day for the FAA. As it relates specifically to what we were doing now, as a result of the tragic crash of American Airlines 53-42 a few months ago, we initiated a very aggressive effort to look across the nation for what we referred to internally as hotspots at 20 locations around the nation to ensure that we were picking up on the data that we may have missed previously. We used new tools like AI and machine learning-

Mrs Torres (38:35):

But safety incidents sir haven't stopped. So what can we aggressively change today, yesterday, tomorrow to stop these incidents, these near misses?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (38:45):

I'll give you three quick examples. First and foremost, Las Vegas, Nevada, we identified early on that the vertical and lateral boundaries for helicopters in fixed wing were not where they needed to be, and traffic advisories, so calling out controllers to pilots to telling them about helicopters in the area. That was something we did immediately when we identified those issues. In the LA basin, we're looking at the mix of traffic there between helicopters and a fixed wing in some of the more dense air traffic areas there. And then finally, in Alaska where weather is so important to the people in Alaska, we're testing new technologies to bring additional satellite weather into that area too.

Mrs Torres (39:31):

Have you raised these concerns with the secretary?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (39:34):

I talk to the secretary regularly and he has impressed upon me-

Mrs Torres (39:39):

But specifically on these issues that you identified?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (39:42):

Yes, we have.

Mrs Torres (39:43):

Okay. So how is the FAA reassuring our pilots and our crews and passengers that every aircraft is held to the highest safety standard?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (39:53):

And I really appreciate it because in addition to what we call this hotspots review, we actually had a series of engagements with the community, so the first one was general aviation, business aviation. Then we moved to the helicopter community, then we moved to ramp workers to make sure the airport safety on the ground was well done. And then we just finished recently with the airlines themselves. So we've engaged directly with the operators within the system.

Mrs Torres (40:21):

I'm very concerned about the software mechanics, engineers, whatever we want to call them, the people that are working on the system that was launched in the 1970s. You can't bring in a modern worker to replace that worker. And I think I'm out of time, so you and I will continue this conversation in the next opportunity, and I yield back.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (40:44):

I'd be happy to.

Chairman Womack (40:44):

Thank you. Mr. Strong.

Mr Strong (40:47):

Thank you Chairman Womack and Ranking member Cliburn for holding this hearing today. I'd also like to thank the subcommittee staff for their hard work, it does not go unnoticed. Mr Rocheleau, thank you for being here today. My district in north Alabama is home to Huntsville International Airport, I'm proud to say Huntsville has been named the best small airport in the country for the second consecutive year. Airports can find it difficult to plan long-term infrastructure projects when they don't have clarity on funding timelines or FAA approvals. Mr. Administrator, has the FAA considered establishing response deadlines for project approvals, allowing them to move forward if no determination is issued within a set timeframe?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (41:34):

So yes sir, I know by law, and let me just say, I've been in Huntsville a number of times both in the Air Force and within the FAA and it's amazing how Huntsville has grown. With respect to timelines specifically, I know that reauthorization requires that deadline to be 45 days. In addition to that, we have the NEPA requirements, which is a year for an environmental assessment, and then two years for the EIS, so the environmental impact statement, and we work closely to that within the airports division.

Mr Strong (42:06):

Thank you. I serve as the co-chair of the Army Aviation Caucus alongside ranking member DeLauro. I would like to express my deepest sympathies for those impacted by the horrific collision at DCA on January the 29th. In the aftermath, the Army's use of automatic dependent surveillance broadcasts, affectionately known as ADS-B, transponders and information communicated to the DCA, air traffic control has come under focus. Reports from more recent close calls have highlighted that even though army aircraft have been transmitting ADS-B information and haven't deviated from approved flight paths, air traffic control has issued go-arounds to commercial airliners because they have been unsure of the helicopter's position. Mr. Administrator, does air traffic control utilize ADS-B data for deconfliction of aircrafts at DCA? If so, is it the sole means of tracking aircraft or does it use a mix of different systems?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (43:14):

Yes sir, we use a mix of systems. We in fact use ADS-B, we also use radar and we use visual separation as well as appropriate.

Mr Strong (43:23):

Does using the mix systems, does this create an ability or degrade ATC's ability to ascertain the aircraft's position?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (43:33):

I think the multiple systems offer the controllers the ability to manage the airspace as efficiently but safely as possible.

Mr Strong (43:43):

Despite previous actions to increase funding for the FAA's office of Commercial Space transportation, the industry still faces long delays in licensing for launch and reentry. What is the FAA's strategy to streamline licensing while maintaining public safety? Are there any specific tools or systems the FAA is investing in to ensure regulations don't ground our space industry?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (44:09):

So I'm very excited about the commercial space industry, and it's certainly one of the areas that I've been focused on in coming back to the agency. We did 142 launches last year, we're expecting close to 200 this year and it's really an exciting time to be. With regard to what we're using to streamline, so we recently issued a part 450 and we are working with the space operators to better understand how we can do that more efficiently going forward. And with respect to airspace, we use what we call the space data integrator. So our air traffic people work very closely with the launch operations to make sure that we can minimize the time that we need to open the airspace for the launches so that we can have smooth transitions between commercial airlines and commercial space launches.

Mr Strong (44:56):

What steps is the FAA taking to integrate space launches into the National Airspace Center effectively? I know you've mentioned a couple there.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (45:05):

Yes, sir. So the space data integrator that's located out at the FAA's command center is really a key element of that, because as we see normal air traffic operations within the system and we see the increase in space launch operations themselves, we want to make sure we de-conflict first and foremost, and second, minimize the impact of the traveling public through airlines.

Mr Strong (45:30):

Thank you. I know that Chairman Cole and Chairman Womack mentioned this, you look at this budget, it is not a budget that is divided partisan, 4 billion for equipment account, 1 billion for modernization of telecommunication network, radar replacement program, hiring and training, add 2,500 new ATC. That's what America's looking for, we want to be sure it's safe. I thank you for your efforts. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Womack (45:57):

Thank you. Mr. Quigley.

Mr Quigley (45:59):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Administrator, how many total FAA employees have taken the President's early retirement opportunity?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (46:09):

How many total employees? So those numbers are not finalized yet largely because we're processing through what we call DRP-2. We had our first tranche of people that came through and I believe that was roughly 700 that applied for the DRP. And then, now we're going through that process for the second one. So we'll roll those numbers up as we go through, I know that I'm in constant contact with my leadership team to understand what the impacts of those, and I would just note that in a number of those cases, we've been able to talk to people who have expressed interest and negotiate their time if they in fact do want to leave.

Mr Quigley (46:50):

But for air traffic controllers for example, there have been saying that there have been no cuts to them, but how many have taken early retirement?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (47:00):

So there have absolutely been no cuts, and the controllers themselves are not eligible, they're not eligible for early retirement. If anything, what the secretary and I have done is incentivize the people who are retirement-eligible. So if you've done 25 years and you're 51, 52, 53 years old, we're giving those senior controllers that we need right now, another 20% increase to their base salary just to stick around for another couple three years.

Mr Quigley (47:26):

I just wanted to confirm that because we've heard there've been no cuts to air traffic controllers, the concern is we have heard that there have been cuts to those workers who help, specifically some of the critical safety functions that support the front-line workers. The dismissal of probationary employees and early retirement buyout program, we're hearing that about 12% of the aeronautical information specialists have left the FAA or are poised to leave. These are informational specialists who update charts, maps and key data after disruption or disturbances in airspace like weather or a collision. This is accurate, we've been told, and how do you plan to make up for those losses?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (48:14):

So again, we have not stopped hiring any safety critical positions, any of them.

Mr Quigley (48:20):

But those people have left or are leaving, so you are lower than where you were.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (48:25):

Sir, there are people that support the critical safety positions, and that is part of the ongoing assessment that I do with my leadership team to make sure that if we have people that have accepted those, that we're managing through that to ensure that there's those services to our controllers and our maintenance people and the like.

Mr Quigley (48:42):

And how do you do that? If you've lost 12% of the people who do those critical functions, who's doing it in the meantime?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (48:49):

Well, there's a few ways. First and foremost, we are assessing how we're doing that and what can we do better, so for instance, going from a paper-based process to an electronic-based process, that's one of them. Making sure that we're hiring for critical safety positions and leveraging the talent that we do have that is staying, and making sure that they can both do the critical safety functions as well as those support functions.

Mr Quigley (49:12):

And respectfully, you call them critical safety functions. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a plan, an assessment of how to replace them, how to phase them out, rather than just do this so dramatically at the start? It's managing your own crisis rather than planning to implement a program like this.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (49:34):

We've been very intentional on how we work through this, recognizing that as I mentioned, there are some people that may express interest in leaving earlier and we can sit down with them and work through what that timeline looks for so we can plan for what's behind them. And I would just say this, the people that are leaving, while we will miss them because they have been amazing public servants, there are a lot of talented people right behind them that are going to come in and pick up the pace.

Mr Quigley (50:03):

I just have to belabor it. Wouldn't it have made more sense to have those discussions, see who's going to take this up, plan on who's going to take their place and phase it in as you go through this rather than do the cuts and then come back and figure out how do we manage that?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (50:20):

I do think there was an opportunity at this case though, even though we may look back and may have approached it a different way. There was an opportunity to allow people to leave that wanted to leave, and at the same time, negotiate with them for a smooth transition.

Mr Quigley (50:35):

I yield back.

Chairman Womack (50:37):

Chairman Rogers.

Chairman Rogers (50:43):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The secretary's new state-of-the-art air traffic control system is long overdue. It seems like it's almost every other day that we're having some problem with air traffic control in this country, with souls in the air under our care. This plan is holistic and it's big and it's expensive. Replacing antiquated telecommunications with new fiber, wireless and satellite technologies at over 4,600 sites. 25,000 new radios, 475 new voice switches and so on and so forth. Replacing 618 radars, which are past their life cycle already. Addressing runway safety by increasing the number of airports with surface awareness initiative to 200. Building six new air traffic control centers for the first time since the sixties.

(52:16)
Replacing towers and TRACONs, installing new modern hardware and software for all air traffic facilities to create a common platform system throughout towers, TRACONs and centers. And then the special problem is in Alaska, with adding 174 new weather stations just in Alaska. This is a huge undertaking at great cost. I've got a mechanical question that Chairman Womack opened up. How are you going to do this? Are we going to build a new system separate and apart from the present system and one day when you get the new one built, you'll switch to on and the other one to off? How's that going to work?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (53:16):

Thank you for the question, and there is no doubt we are looking for a real investment in this, and I believe it is a true investment in the US and the future. When I think of the aviation industry as an economic generator of over a $1 trillion and 10 million US good-paying jobs, as it relates specifically to our plan that you so well outlined, a big piece of that is being able to sustain the operations we have today. I can talk a little bit about Newark where we're transitioning from the copper wires, the old-fashioned telephone lines, over to fiber optic cables. That's just one example of where we're taking what we have in place and we're transitioning into a new system as it relates to radars and facilities. All of those things are going to be part of this where we continue to operate the system safely every day and then we switch over, as you described, we switch over into these new modern systems with intentional, deliberate testing to make sure the redundancy and the resiliency is there, to ensure the safety of the traveling public.

Chairman Rogers (54:25):

Would you be using some equipment under the current system?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (54:29):

I'm sorry, what equipment?

Chairman Rogers (54:30):

Would you be mixing in pieces from the new system to the old system and vice versa?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (54:37):

So the whole idea is to replace the system, but that is going to take some time to get there, and I think yesterday we issued a request for information for the best and brightest companies to come in and help us do that transition, I think that's a real opportunity for us to understand. But the plan, as we described it earlier, is to essentially continue to operate the system as we do today and then switch over to the new technologies.

Chairman Rogers (55:06):

So it'll be all new equipment-

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (55:08):

Yes sir.

Chairman Rogers (55:09):

... and supplies and the like in the new system? None of the old?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (55:13):

No more floppy disks or paper strips.

Chairman Rogers (55:17):

So you'll turn the switch to on and take the shovels and do away with the old system.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (55:24):

It's a little more complicated than that, but we will switch it over to the new system.

Chairman Rogers (55:29):

All right, good luck.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (55:30):

Thank you sir.

Chairman Rogers (55:30):

Thank you. Yield back.

Chairman Womack (55:32):

And they'll be doing it while you're in the air, Mr. Rogers. I'm pretty confident. Ms. Watson-Coleman.

Mrs Watson Coleman (55:43):

Thank you sir. Good morning to you. I have a couple of questions that have to do with the Newark airport. I also have some questions regarding just air traffic controllers in general. Could you just tell me, what is a starting salary for an air traffic controller?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (56:04):

So it really depends on the facility, but we bring them in as an academy student in roughly that 45 to 60,000 range. As I mentioned earlier, we've incentivized new academy people to join us at 30% of that increase. But when you get to a facility, it really depends on the facility. It can range from anywhere from the sixties and seventies all the way up to, a fully certified professional controller can be in the 145 to 150 range.

Mrs Watson Coleman (56:29):

And that depends upon how large the airport is, how busy it is, etc?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (56:32):

Correct, there's levels, yes ma'am.

Mrs Watson Coleman (56:34):

Where is the Newark airport in that?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (56:40):

I will have to take the IOU on what level the controllers are at Newark, I should know that, but I do know that that is a well understood for the tower specifically. I'm not sure the level of the tower there. And then obviously we have the controllers at Philadelphia area C, which is controlling some of the incoming to Newark,

Mrs Watson Coleman (57:02):

The problems with the Newark airport delays.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (57:05):

Yes ma'am.

Mrs Watson Coleman (57:06):

What percentage of those delays were due to staffing issues, staffing shortages, and what percentage of it is due to infrastructure that's old and needs to be replaced?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (57:22):

So there are three primary reasons for the delays, first and foremost is weather, and that is the constant one. The second is the outages that we were experiencing that we are working through and fixing now. And then the third is staffing, so staffing continues to be a challenge for us. I would say that we have 27 certified controllers that are operating in Philadelphia area C now to manage the air traffic going into Newark, and we have 22, we just got six new people going through training now. So we will be healthier towards the end of this summer for Newark, specifically in that area C. So I'm confident in that the delays will be reduced for going in there, in fact, even working with the airlines through our recent delay reduction effort, we will be here shortly and probably next week at a 34 rate, which will be able to manage safely through that air traffic system with the controllers.

Mrs Watson Coleman (58:17):

So is it infrastructure, is it congestion or is it staffing that is going to delay Newark being up and ready at its capacity in October, as opposed to July, August, September?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (58:40):

I would say I'm confident that by October timeframe the technology issues will be resolved. The Secretary's been very clear with me that we need to fix this and we're fixing this now. The second piece to that is the staffing, I think by October we will be very healthy in there at staffing levels that we need. And then of course, the weather is always going to be one of those challenges.

Mrs Watson Coleman (59:01):

So I know, sir, that there were not cuts to the air traffic controllers, but as my colleague mentioned, there were cuts to staff that support it, those functions. Now I'm wondering to what extent, I understand that in February, Elon Musk's DOGE folks came there with their chainsaw and as a result 400 people were let go or went on their own. Is that accurate?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (59:29):

I would clarify by saying that there were 400 probationary employees that were terminated, 360 of which returned to the FAA.

Mrs Watson Coleman (59:39):

Why did they return? Because it was wrong to let them go?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (59:47):

It was a court case. My understanding of the court case ended up having those probationary employees be returned to.

Mrs Watson Coleman (59:55):

So I know that you've been in service in your capacity

Mrs Watson Coleman (01:00:00):

... for quite a while. Were you at all consulted when those 400 people were identified to be released and did you have any input on whether or not that was going to impact your ability to do what we all agree is your primary function is make sure our planes don't crash into one another or run into grounds?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:00:22):

Right, so I certainly was in the chair. I've been in the chair for four months now. I was in the chair when those decisions were made and was consulted as to how we were going to manage through that period of time. Again, I would say that we preserved the safety critical positions and we made sure that as we were walking through the probationary employee situation, that we were managing the workload as a... Again, these folks were there for probably less than a year, obviously for the probationary terminations. But at the end of the day, what we did was we consulted with the leadership teams in each one of those lines of business.

Mrs Watson Coleman (01:01:00):

Thank you Mr. Administrator. Apparently they are needed though in that capacity and so I'm glad that they are back. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:01:08):

Thank you.

Mr. Rutherford (01:01:08):

Sheriff Rutherford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member and Acting Administrator. Rocheleau, thank you for being here this afternoon to talk about some of this. I want to go back to the ATCs and talk a little bit about that as well because it's very important to my district where we have the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center for all of Northeast Florida, which has that funnel effect and it's incredibly busy. 160,000 square miles of airspace, 20 military installations, 200 civilian airports.

(01:01:47)
How these folks do it, I have no idea. Incredibly proud of those guys and gals and what they do. I was really happy to see this 97 million to hire 2,500. Question though how much of that we're going to be able to accomplish. I'm concerned about that. One of the things that I'd like to ask in finding those people, the DEI biologics assessments that were being used previously for selection of ATCs, air traffic controllers, that were part of the DEI process before, which I think 1000 that were proficient but refused hiring because of their biologics were then filed a lawsuit. Of that 1000, are we going back to those folks? I know we've gone back to performance-based selecting, correct?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:02:59):

Yes, sir. That's correct. Merit-based approach to hiring.

Mr. Rutherford (01:03:02):

Right, right. And so have we gone back to those who were proficient but rejected simply because of their race back three years ago, whenever that was?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:03:16):

I am not specifically aware of those individuals or an effort to go back to them. I will be happy to take the IOU and get back to you and your staff to make sure that we follow up on that.

Mr. Rutherford (01:03:27):

If they're still willing to come, that would be a great source to tap into, I would think. And I think what you're going to find also is that 35% failure rate in the academy is going to go down significantly when it's more based on merit than biological information. So I'm glad to see you all moving in that direction. Can you talk a little more on what specifically can we do to help you with this process? We're talking about $39,000 per student of... You take 97 million, that ain't a lot of money for 2,500 students. That's 39,000 a head. Is that going to be enough? And are there other things that we can do to help you in this process?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:04:25):

Well, first and foremost, I appreciate the support. Clearly, working with Congress is going to be critical to our success going forward. I would also say that we have budgeted, we have programmed for up to 2,500 in our current budget request with the $97.3 million. I would also make a very important point here as it relates to the throughput. So as we have truncated the ability to get additional people into the academy itself, and we've added instructors to do that basic... As we use the certified controllers to do the evaluation piece, we are confident that we are going to see a better graduation rate coming out of there. Part of that is the tutoring piece that I talked about earlier as well. So I'm confident in what we have put in place to be able to meet our goals this year. It is aggressive, I will acknowledge that, but I think-

Mr. Rutherford (01:05:17):

Is that going to be official tutoring over the weekends and that sort of thing that you mentioned earlier?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:05:22):

We will have tutors available, but we'll also have the high-definition simulators for people to go and practice. I learned that in the military when we did a lot of that. Those simulators would be very valuable to those people who wanted to put in the extra work.

Mr. Rutherford (01:05:37):

Let me switch over to some of the work that they're going to be dealing with, particularly looking at your long career at FAA and in the Air Force. I'm sure you've seen eras where there's a lot of progress as well as a lot of stagnation within the aviation sector and part of the future of aviation is drone and how that's going to fit into the commercial space. Now I see the budget deals with some of that in a modest amount and I'm appreciative of that, but let me ask you, can you share with this subcommittee a bit about your vision for how the drone commercial space is going to fit together? Because it's coming quickly.

Chairman Womack (01:06:27):

Give you a few seconds to answer the question.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:06:29):

Oh, I'm sorry. It is coming quickly and it was one of the reasons why I was so excited to come back to the FAA, bringing new innovative technologies into the airspace. That includes drones. That includes advanced air mobility, the EV tolls or air taxis. And it includes commercial space as well.

Mr. Rutherford (01:06:44):

Thank you. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I went over my time. I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:06:47):

No worries. Mr. Espaillat.

Mr. Espaillat (01:06:50):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you Acting Administrator Rocheleau for being here. I think we all acknowledge here that the stakes are very high with regards to air safety and the FAA is in the business of air safety. I myself, in addition to other members, let's say a bipartisan group of five members were on a plane whose wing was clipped at Reagan while taxiing. This is just a few months after the horrible accident that took so many lives. So safety is really in danger for the American public and we had Secretary Duffy testify and he acknowledged that the skinny budget fell severely short of the kind of investment that is needed to meet the challenge of safety.

(01:07:49)
And we see an increase, but it still falls short of the $31 billion that are required to ensure that the American public is safe while traveling. As we approach the holiday season and other important seasons, we approach the World Cup, the Olympics, there's going to be a substantial increase in travel here and we're not ready. In fact, some of the changes that need to be made are going to take some time, so they may even require a supplemental budget. So my question first is do you acknowledge that we're short at the $22 billion level and do you feel that we need a supplemental to meet the demand?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:08:40):

Thanks for the question. There is a lot of activity. Look forward to the World Cup and a number of the other things. As we have programmed here in the budget request, I believe this is appropriate for what we need to do with respect to moving from copper wire to fiber optic. I believe it is appropriate to supercharge controllers to get in the system and it will take some time, which is why we're-

Mr. Espaillat (01:09:06):

How much time will it take?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:09:08):

For? Sorry.

Mr. Espaillat (01:09:09):

For us to meet the demand for the World Cup, for the Olympics, for heavy travel during the holidays.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:09:16):

So I should have started with this. The system is safe and will continue to be safe. We will make sure of that. The 45,000 people at the FAA will make sure of that.

Mr. Espaillat (01:09:24):

I don't know. We have gaps in air traffic controller, supervision of air travel and landing and takeoff in Newark and severely putting people in danger. How long is the overall plan to be ready and really at an optimum?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:09:44):

We will maintain the safety of the system. We may slow it down, but we will maintain the safety of the system.

Mr. Espaillat (01:09:48):

Can you give me a timeframe?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:09:49):

I believe, particularly engaging with Congress here when we talk about the secretary's plan for a big, bold... And the president is a champion of this as well, for a new air traffic system, we're looking at a three to four year period. I believe we can get there [inaudible 01:10:05]-

Mr. Espaillat (01:10:05):

Do you think that will require a supplemental budget? That I think will be bipartisan in scope. I think everybody wants safety.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:10:10):

I wouldn't disagree. We're going to need Congress's help for additional funding.

Mr. Espaillat (01:10:14):

You will need a supplemental. Okay. My next question is Elon Musk recently pushed for the FAA to use his Starlink satellite for air traffic control. That's been reported. Have you ever had a conversation with Mr. Musk, personnel at the White House or DOGE staff about potentially using Starlink for air traffic control systems?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:10:42):

I have never had a conversation with Elon Musk. I have worked very closely to make sure that as we experiment with new capabilities including satellite technologies like Starlink-

Mr. Espaillat (01:10:51):

Well, have you had a conversation with the White House staff or even with DOGE staff about using Starlink?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:10:59):

No, sir.

Mr. Espaillat (01:10:59):

Okay. Thank you so much. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Womack (01:11:03):

Mr. Gonzales.

Mr. Gonzales (01:11:05):

Thank you Chairman. Thank you Minister for testifying today. I want to talk about safety. We often talk about aircrafts falling out of the sky, which is important, or getting clipped as you're taxing, but I'm worried about these increased amounts of unmanned aircraft systems, UAS drones that are falling out of the sky. We just saw Ukraine conduct one of the most significant operations of the Russian-Ukraine war and with a small amount of money, with a small amount of quadcopters, they were able to decimate Russia's long-range strategic bombers to the tunes of billions of dollars. I'm worried about that. That's not a what if, that's now. That is currently right now what is happening. My question is pretty simple. Is our US airspace safe from drone threats?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:12:07):

I would refer that question to the national security, but our airspace today is capable of managing safe integration of UAS.

Mr. Gonzales (01:12:14):

Because this is what I worry about is after 9/11, everyone's pointing fingers and everyone saw this coming, but it's always somebody else's purview. Everyone has a piece of it. And I'm trying to figure out what role FAA plays in this when it comes to drone technology, when it comes to drone interaction, when it comes to that piece to it.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:12:39):

It's a great question and I should highlight the close coordination, collaboration and communication between the FAA, the DOT, the Department of Defense, the Department of Homeland Security for the things you're talking about. As we work through integrating UAS into the airspace, we're working alongside our national security partners every day.

Mr. Gonzales (01:13:01):

Let me ask you another question. How many drones were in US airspace yesterday?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:13:08):

I'll have to take an IOU on that one for you. I know we fly thousands of drones every day in the airspace. I don't have an accurate count for you today.

Mr. Gonzales (01:13:14):

We should absolutely know what drones are in our airspace every single day, and that's what I want us to get to. Who's in the air? What are they doing in there? What are the intentions? And I don't want to wait until it's after the fact. I want to get ahead of that. To that point, what resources does FAA need from Congress to ensure that critical infrastructure from future drone threats is safe?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:13:42):

So our budget, in fact does incorporate our need from Congress, our support from Congress to make sure that as we work through this safe integration into the airspace that we're working specifically on things like drone detection, drone mitigation. Again, working with our national security partners who do this for a living.

Mr. Gonzales (01:14:01):

I think this is important. Once again, this isn't the future. We're here. And guess what? Every drone that's up in the air isn't necessarily going to cause harm, but there may be some that do, and we're at a point where very soon Amazon packages are going to be delivered. It's going to be a very busy airspace. It already is. And the fact, we need to know how many drones are in the air and we need to know what those drones' intentions are. And we also need to have counter-UAS incentives, our mitigations involved in that. And I think FAA plays a role in that. I understand you're working with other partners, but the airspace belongs to you in many cases. So how do we continue to work with that? Big part of that is a budget on that. I'd love to continue to work with you and hear back on some of your answers.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:14:49):

I'd be happy to do that. We are very much in favor of the drone detection and of course the mitigation when appropriately utilized.

Mr. Gonzales (01:14:57):

I have one minute left. My last question is on this. Section 570 of FAA Reauthorization Act directs the department to partner with National Academies to assess the loss of commercial error service in small communities and identify options for restoring it. I appreciate the directive and I think it comes at a critical time for Del Rio. Del Rio is a border community. Del Rio is central to Laughlin Air Force Base as well as the Del Rio Border Patrol sector. And we're currently without an airline. That community has no access to an airline. Can you speak to how the department is implementing for the section 570 study and whether Del Rio, given its proximity to international trade, military installations and key trade corridors will be considered in this assessment?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:15:50):

Yes, sir. Appreciate the question because having just returned from the general aviation business aviation community, I understand the importance of small community air service. I know that our team has been working intensely on doing the analysis that you talk about that reauthorization directs us. I will circle back with you with the latest on that effort.

Mr. Gonzales (01:16:08):

Great. Thank you. I yield back, Chairman.

Chairman Womack (01:16:10):

I think Mr. Gonzales in his previous question asks a good question so I'm going to follow up real quickly. Would it even be possible for the FAA to know how many drones were in US airspace in a given period of time?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:16:29):

In a given day, total?

Chairman Womack (01:16:30):

Based on our current requirements, based on current law, is it even possible?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:16:41):

I don't believe the FAA would know every single drone in the sky today. But we do, in fact, work with legal operators and we would be able to collect that through that. A child with a drone would be more challenging. But I would tell you that the systems that we have in place and the companies that we work with... I just returned from Texas and watching some of the demonstrations there utilizing what we call UAS traffic management. It's an incredible system and it will keep count of the drones you're talking about.

Chairman Womack (01:17:11):

Well, while it may be impossible to know a child getting a Christmas present, launching a drone, I think Tony's question is more relative to the nefarious actor out there who wouldn't be adhering to any rules and regulations that we have.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:17:28):

Yes, sir. And that's why I would just highlight our constant effort with our law enforcement assistance program to go after the clueless, the careless, and the criminal to make sure that we're interdicting as quickly as possible to change that behavior.

Chairman Womack (01:17:42):

Mr. Aguilar.

Mr. Aguilar (01:17:43):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Administrator. I wanted to ask. I understand and I know there have been questions about staffing, Administrator. I understand the FAA has continued processing airport applications for federal grants, but review times have increased as the agency loses staffing expertise at its headquarters and district offices. This is troublesome for many airports as these airports work to keep their construction projects on schedule as you understand. How has DOGE's efforts to downsize the FAA impacted the agency's grant review time and processing to date?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:18:26):

Thank you for the question. I don't believe that any DOGE activities which have not directly related to any FAA activities have had any impacts on the grant specifically. I would say that when we first came in, there was a serious backlog of grant announcements that we had to work through. I would say that as I look at my sheet here, we're looking at 1.7 billion here in getting out in over 465 grants. So we've got our momentum going back. But with respect to DOGE specifically, I would say there were no impacts.

Mr. Aguilar (01:19:04):

You don't think a loss of headcount has had any effort in the timing and the delays of implementing the grants?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:19:12):

I don't believe there was a loss in headcount that it impacted grants just to be specific to the question.

Mr. Aguilar (01:19:20):

We could run through the headcount losses that you've had. So you're saying at the district level or at the HQ level, you don't believe any of the loss of headcount has had a direct impact on processing and implementing grants?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:19:34):

No, sir. I think the delay has been related to the backlog in us working through it. I don't believe it had to do with any change in the staffing.

Mr. Aguilar (01:19:44):

How has the downsizing impacted the FAA's ability to approve airport projects in a timely manner?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:19:53):

I think the opportunity really is to go from what we'll call traditional or paper-based types of processing and using a more streamlined process. One of the things we're looking at specific to airport grants is the use of AI, much like we do in the safety realm, now we're looking at processing grants and using categorical exclusions for instance, when we talk about specific projects as it relates to environmental issues. So we're using a number of different tools that we have today that we probably didn't have a year ago in order to expedite that. But again, I go back to it is not about the change in the workforce specifically. It's more along the lines of building out a more efficient process going forward.

Mr. Aguilar (01:20:34):

And we'd love to be partners in building an efficient process. I think that's what the Chairman and the Ranking Member have indicated they are focused on and we want to be willing partners here. I think what's frustrating is when actions happen or grants don't get out and we just see the impacts and the results, not just of safety concerns, but of actual dollars getting out on the streets, back homes closer to our district. But since you mentioned projects, since we're talking about projects, the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 included provisions to speed up airport infrastructure projects by reducing regulatory overreach and land use approvals. You talked about categorical exemptions. And streamlining the process for approving these projects with local user fees. Can you give an update on the FAA's progress in simplifying airport land use approvals and launching fully streamlined passenger facility charge approval process?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:21:34):

Yeah, again, I appreciate that question simply because of what we described earlier as backlogs, we have looked at the opportunity in addition to what reauthorization has directed for our staff to be able to look for like opportunities, whether it's on the West Coast or the East Coast, and be able to streamline that. Specific to environmental issues, that is obviously a little bit more challenging, but one of the ways we are doing that is in fact using the categorical exclusions to expedite the projects out there because I understand getting that money out there, particularly in a important building season, is critical to the local communities.

Mr. Aguilar (01:22:17):

When will the locals see that benefit? When will they see the projects and when will they see the delays cease?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:22:27):

I think the delays have begun to decrease significantly, and I think they will continue to see more money coming out. Again, in the next few weeks we're going to see hundreds of millions of dollars coming out through those grants.

Mr. Aguilar (01:22:40):

I've got a local issue. We'll put it into the record for you to get back to us on. San Bernardino International Airport as a federal contract tower. And we've had some language that we secured in the reoff and we'd love your attention to this and your help with this. We'll send it to the record as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Womack (01:22:58):

Thank you.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:22:58):

Thank you.

Chairman Womack (01:22:59):

Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Joyce (01:23:00):

Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Rocheleau, thank you for being here today. I'd like to follow up on my distinguished colleague, Mr. Aguilar's comments there. And all of us here are among those who travel through DCA on a pretty regular basis, and we wait at DCA with most of the traveling public does for reasons unbeknownst to us. But can you share with the committee any specific steps that's being taken to improve the operational performance at DCA, particularly during these peak travel periods?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:23:35):

Yes, sir. So there's a handful of ways we've talked about. First and foremost, after the tragic collision, we cleared that airspace. We made it less complex by removing the helicopter traffic. So first and foremost, that really did contribute to the ability for the controllers to manage air traffic in a safer, more efficient manner. Second, we focused on specifically the controllers themselves. So we had an authorized rate staffing at 28. We're now at 30 and we're going to 31. So we've prioritized hiring for DCA traffic specifically and getting people up to speed there. And then we work with the carriers. At the end of the day, you have to work with the airports and you have to work with the airlines to make sure that as we have traffic surges, that we're able to spread that out throughout the day to make sure there aren't these peaks which contribute to delays themselves and add workload to the controllers.

Mr. Joyce (01:24:31):

Having sat on the runway [inaudible 01:24:33] because we missed our slot because we were a little late taking off-

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:24:36):

I apologize for that.

Mr. Joyce (01:24:37):

... getting into DCA is an issue as well, I understand. What aspects of the FAA's 26 requests are directly aimed at addressing those challenges? Are there further measures or plans under consideration to enhance reliability and efficiency with this critical airport while continuing to prioritize the safety?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:24:53):

So I would point you directly to the staffing piece. I think the staffing piece, whether it's at DCA and we're focused on DCA, obviously in addition to places like Newark and other locations, that money that we're requesting for staffing is going to make a difference. We're not waiting for that money to come. Quite honestly, we're working towards staffing appropriately as we can with the money that we do have. But I would say that the staffing is a big piece. The technology, when we think about introducing new technologies, we are in a good place as it relates specifically to DCA with respect to our fiber and communications efforts. But again, I go back to when we think about how it integrates within the larger system, with the Potomac TRACON and the command center and some of these other locations, it's going to be critical for us to make these investments into the technologies in addition to the controller workforce itself.

Mr. Joyce (01:25:49):

As we discussed this modernization efforts to the national airspace more broadly, it's important to ensure that the smaller airports like those in Ohio are not left behind. These airports do not have 24/7 air traffic control staffing and therefore rely mostly on automated systems like the Automated Weather Observing System and the Automated Surface Observing System for weather reporting to ensure that operations could be carried out safely at all hours. Investing in the infrastructure and technology at these smaller airports is essential to maintain this efficient and accessible airspace for all Americans. With this in mind, how do you plan to ensure that the smaller airports, those outside of the core 30 largest airports that rely on these automated systems the most are adequately prioritized in any system with modernization efforts that are moving forward?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:26:38):

That's a great question because again, I certainly appreciate having just come from the industry, the importance of being able to have that connectivity with local, regional airports. The technology specifically is part of our ongoing refresh, if you will. And when we think about service monitoring or airborne monitoring, all of this technologies, they may not have the same thing that say a JFK or a Newark would, but we want to make sure that the tools are there, whether it's a staff tower or an uncontrolled airport, that they have those technologies in place. And so part of this effort is to ensure the continuing refresh of the technologies there and the enhancements as they come available.

Mr. Joyce (01:27:20):

So how will your 26 requests ensure all the airports, regardless of size, have access to the needed funding so they're able to operate at full capacity?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:27:29):

Well, and certainly that is part of the ongoing process as we look at rolling out what we have today. And that is separate from what we're talking about with respect to a whole new modern air traffic plan. It just goes back to what I mentioned where we identify these airports through our [inaudible 01:27:47] through our system, through our approach, and make sure that as these refreshes are necessary, that we're devoting the resources that are critical to get them back up to speed.

Mr. Joyce (01:27:59):

I had the opportunity as I addressed Secretary Duffy a few weeks back, back in 2017 to go with then Chairman Shuster and Secretary Chow up to Canada to see the system that they have there. And when you go into our towers and you see the paper and the floppy disk and the other thing, that's not the way it should be. And I appreciate the efforts that you're going to take to fix that. I won't bore you with any more next-end questions.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:28:24):

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Joyce (01:28:24):

Thank you very much, Chairman.

Chairman Womack (01:28:26):

And finally, the distinguished vice chair of this subcommittee, Ms. Bice.

Mrs. Bice (01:28:30):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Administrator, for being with us this morning. I want to follow up on a comment that you made in response to Mr. Joyce's question, and that was after the DCA accident, that you took a good look at all of the incoming traffic, paused helicopter traffic in. But subsequent to the accident, there was another incursion, or close call I should say. I'm sorry, not an incursion, a close call that happened with two aircraft leaving DCA. Interestingly enough, I was on the tarmac and saw that happen. So my question to you is, do you believe that you are able to effectively communicate with DOD on military traffic coming in and out of the DCA airspace?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:29:16):

I do believe we have a very good communication link with our Department of Defense partners. I would also say they're not flying right now because we are revisiting the letter of authorization that we have going, unless it's a mission-critical operation.

Mrs. Bice (01:29:30):

Who defines mission-critical?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:29:32):

So that would be a law enforcement. We have protocols that would set up through this letter of agreement that a national security mission, a law enforcement intervention, something along those lines, a helicopter medevac type thing, those would be coordinated with the controllers. And there's certain codes they use to talk back and forth. But in terms of what we'll call priority transport or some of the other more routine activities that the Army was conducting, we've shut those down until such time as we're comfortable with

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:30:00):

... what we'll call new rules of the road.

Mrs. Bice (01:30:01):

And you do believe that the airspace in DCA is safe?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:30:04):

Absolutely.

Mrs. Bice (01:30:05):

Okay. Earlier we talked about the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center. When I was elected in 2020, that was actually in my congressional district. It is now not, after redistricting, but I'm very conscientious of what happens at that facility.

(01:30:21)
One of the things that surprised me is the length of time it takes to actually get an air traffic controller into a tower. They apply, they have to have an initial screening, then they have to do testing, then there's a medical evaluation. This process takes some time. And the one thing that surprised me the most is how long the medical eval can take. Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing to address that specifically?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:30:43):

Yes, thank you. It did take too long and that's one of the reasons why the secretary has tasked us with supercharging this hiring process, cutting five months out of the process in general. Specific to medicals, though, one of the ways we truncated that process by looking at security and medicals in tandem to make sure we process them efficiently, effectively, and not waiting in line. So we were doing it concurrently. That made a big difference in reducing that timeline.

(01:31:11)
I also, knowing the medical certification piece of this, whether it's for the controllers or the pilots that we talk about, I meet with the aerospace surgeon on a regular basis to track. I know that we've just recently provided some additional information for people to essentially educate themselves to bring the proper paperwork, but I would say that it's over 90% of the people that come in, they get that medical certificate when they walk out. And that's a real tribute to, again, the secretary and the team that's put an emphasis on this.

Mrs. Bice (01:31:41):

Let's talk about air traffic controllers for a moment. Certainly you've talked about an increase in hiring, which we all agree is necessary. There are people that maybe want to leave the profession because they've been in it for many, many years and it's a high stress position, a lot of expectation. It's a zero failure mission. Can you talk a little bit about the overtime that has been potentially placed on air traffic controllers, particularly at larger airports, due to maybe shortages and how that's impacting their ability to, you know, maybe the longevity in that role?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:32:18):

So I work very closely with the controller union president. We have a number of engagements to basically keep a finger on the pulse for the health and the welfare of the controllers themselves. There are indeed facilities that require overtime simply because of staffing and making sure that we do that. At the same time, we have a number of safety reporting systems in place that if someone is feeling that stress or someone needs that time off, we allow that person to take that time. So we're very focused on the safety, the health, and the welfare of the controllers themselves.

(01:32:49)
As it relates to additional staffing, that's part of what we're going through here with we're hiring new controllers and in those facilities that are most critically staffed, prioritizing them for controllers that can come in and hit the ground running.

Mrs. Bice (01:33:04):

Thank you for that. My time is almost up, but I just want to offer you the opportunity when you have time to come to Oklahoma City, visit the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center. I'm sure that the full committee chairman, Mr. Cole, and I, along with Congressman Lucas would love the opportunity to just visit with you and see what we can do to continue to strengthen the facility. It's a large facility. It has a lot of, I think infrastructure needs that we need to invest in, and so certainly we are here to help you make sure that the facility meets the needs of the next century. So with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield.

Chairman Womack (01:33:39):

I thank the gentlelady. As I recognize the final member of our panel here this morning, the chair notices a young man in the audience with a similar tie to Mr. Ciscomani. Mr. Ciscomani, do you have a guest here?

Juan Ciscomani (01:33:54):

I do. My son Kenny, he's here joining us. I already told the press that he's not available for questions just yet, but he will be at some point.

Chairman Womack (01:34:04):

You're recognized.

Juan Ciscomani (01:34:05):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you Administrator Rocheleau for being here with us today. I first want to ask about an issue that is top of mind for many airports around the country, including Tucson International Airport in southern Arizona, and that is regarding PFAS remediation. In my district, the presence of PFAS is a major public health threat. The FAA has previously mandated the use of PFAS- containing foams for commercial airports, and while many airports like Tucson International Airport are now transitioning to foams that do not contain PFAS, they're still burdened with the cost of remediation for previously used foams. How does your agency plan to assist commercial airports in these critical remediation efforts?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:34:51):

Thank you for the question. Tucson has a special place. It was my first assignment as a second lieutenant in the Air Force, and so I'm familiar with the airport and the importance of it. With respect to PFAS and the mitigations there, I actually connected with my airport's office yesterday and I understand we have ongoing dialogue with how we're going to manage through that. I know that there was an authorization to further mitigate the PFAS that we're talking about, not just at Tucson, but in other locations. I know that an appropriation will be particularly critical to being able to move forward on some of those mitigations, but I also know that the work that we're doing specific to Tucson, but in addition to that, a few other airports, the plan to mitigate that is ongoing with respect to ensuring that the airports have the information they need to follow that up when the funding appears.

Juan Ciscomani (01:35:54):

Yeah, and I think that's critical, so I'll certainly advocate for you all to receive the funds that are needed to clean up PFAS in our community without creating the undue burden on the airports themselves that already have limited budgets, as you know. So I appreciate your attention on this critical issue.

(01:36:12)
Next, I'd like to highlight a key facility in my district, Pinal Airpark. If you've been in southern Arizona, you probably are familiar with Pinal Airlark. This general aviation and military facility, originally known as the Marana Army Airfield, is notably where more than 10,000 pilots trained during World War II. Today, the Airpark supports a mix of military and commercial aviation activities, with over a hundred thousand flight operations annually. Pinal Airpark is among the busiest multi-use airports in the nation operating without an air traffic control tower.

(01:36:45)
Last year, Congress passed the FAA Reauthorization Bill with a provision prioritizing the construction of air traffic control towers that support safety at multi-use airports. Pinal Airpark fits this description perfectly and was recently accepted as a candidate for the FAA Contract Tower Program. Can I have your agency's commitment to fully consider Pinal Airpark as a candidate for a new tower under this program?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:37:09):

Yes, you can.

Juan Ciscomani (01:37:10):

Perfect. Thank you. That's critical here for us. The air traffic control tower at Pinal Airpark is greatly needed, and I look forward to working with you to make that tower a reality.

(01:37:23)
Here with the last minute or so that I have, I want to ask about something that you touched on in your testimony and some of my colleagues have mentioned as well, is the air traffic control tower staffing side of it as well. What specific steps has the FAA taken to ensure adequate staffing levels at critical facilities across the country on that matter?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:37:42):

No, again, I can't emphasize enough the importance of making sure that under the secretary's leadership that we do in fact realize the supercharge effort, the goal that we're attempting. So right now we're focused on making sure that we get up to 2,500 through Oklahoma City, as well as through our enhanced CTI training schools, so the collegiate partnerships that we have.

(01:38:07)
In addition to that, we're incentivizing people to come to the FAA and to go to tougher to staff locations with financial incentives. I think one of the things that's really going to help us in this effort, though, it's critical, is we're giving 20% to experience controllers to stay per year, to stay on as certified controllers, whether that's in an operational role or in a training role, to make sure that we have that bridge as we get healthy again in our controller staff. We're 3000 down and we're working to make sure that within the next couple of years that we've got that back [inaudible 01:38:41].

Juan Ciscomani (01:38:41):

Real quick here, what do you think the shortage, what's the reason for it? I mean, it pays well, high training, now you have incentives to stay. Just real quick, what do you think the highlights of-

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:38:54):

I think there were a variety of reasons. Part of it is I'll just say advertising. We're trying to make sure people understand this is an exciting, very rewarding career field. I also think that the time to get people into the academy was too long. We were at a year and a half in some cases, and a 25 year old's not going to wait around for a year and a half to get a job. They're going to go do something. So truncating the process and getting them into the school quicker I think is going to help us.

Juan Ciscomani (01:39:17):

Thank you, sir. We'd love to welcome you back to your old stomping grounds in Tucson and have you there soon. Thank you so much. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:39:24):

Yeah, thank you, Mr. Ciscomani. If it pleases the subcommittee, we're going to do one more round of just a single question, so be thinking about your question. But before I go to my last question, I'm going to recognize the overall chairman of the committee once again, Mr. Cole, who has been gracious enough to sit through this entire hearing today. Mr. Cole, I'm going to recognize you for any final comments you'd like to make because I know you have an agenda and you've got to escape.

Chairman Cole (01:39:53):

I do. Thank you. I just wanted to compliment you, Mr. Chairman, you, Mr. Ranking Member, and every member of this committee, and I particularly want to single out you, Mr. Administrator. This is the way a hearing ought to work. I mean, this is a really good hearing. All the questions were substantive questions, all of them focused on real needs. All of you had real concerns. You put them out there. I just wanted to compliment the leadership of this committee on both sides of the aisle for the manner in which this was done, and I want to compliment you, Mr. Administrator. You're a terrific witness. You know your stuff, and you've been very candid and forthcoming with the committee and very helpful in us understanding.

(01:40:35)
And I'm serious. I do think this is one of the areas we can and should cooperate on. I don't see much in the way of partisanship that deals with this, or even profound disagreement. We mostly agree on what needs to get done here, and again, I want to thank the members of the committee because everybody came here with a legitimate concern and very legitimate questions, and I didn't think, with all due respect, anybody was looking for a television moment. They just wanted to know the stuff and figure out what they could do to help you and the mission you have in keeping our skies in particular safe.

(01:41:12)
So again, a lot more committee meetings are like this than we get credit for I think in the media, and I just want to thank all of you again on each side of the aisle and our witness for making it a really excellent, excellent, and useful committee hearing. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member. I appreciate it.

Chairman Womack (01:41:34):

Thank you very much, Mr. Cole, and you've honored us with your presence here today and we truly appreciate it.

(01:41:41)
One quick question. My final question, going back to staffing. You've got a lot of things that you're responsible for and it's good that on the mission critical safety required things that people been excluded from the DRP and efforts to downsize, but the fact is you do so many other things that are not directly related to aviation safety. And I'm talking about certifications and lots of other different programs, reevaluation of airspace as an example, and things like rulemaking beyond the visual line of sight, those kinds of things. Can you confirm that our staffing reductions are not going to interfere with your ability to conduct some of these other lesser-known functions of the FAA?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:42:37):

Yes, sir. I can. Again, safety critical, we will always continue to ... Where we find need, we have the ability to bring people back. The secretary has been very clear with me. If I have a need for something, whether it's aeronautical services or an engineer, and by the way, we continue to hire engineers to do our oversight, I have that ability to do that, so I will tell you we will be solid on staffing.

Chairman Womack (01:43:05):

Thank you. Mr. Clyburn.

Mr. Clyburn (01:43:06):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I do have a question. Mr. Administrator, you have had a long career in the United States Air Force. Do you know, this is more rhetorical, if you don't know, I won't be insulted, the name of Daniel Chappie James?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:43:27):

Yes sir, I do.

Mr. Clyburn (01:43:28):

Thank you very much. Do you remember who he was?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:43:32):

Yes sir, I do.

Mr. Clyburn (01:43:33):

But then you're ... I knew Daniel. When you've been around as long as I have, you would know these people. He was a good buddy. He became the first African American in this country to be a four-star general. He got that general [inaudible 01:43:53] because of a DEI program that was put in place that became known as the Tuskegee Airmen.

(01:44:01)
And there seemed to be some preoccupation with DEI on the subcommittee, so I'm not going to be able to [inaudible 01:44:07] with myself if I don't raise this issue. Now, in his first administration, President Trump put in place a DEI program for people with disabilities and it was successful. Now, in this administration, he's gotten rid of that program. Are you familiar with that program that brought people with disabilities into the FAA?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:44:33):

I am generally familiar with it.

Mr. Clyburn (01:44:35):

It's a very successful program, but we've gotten rid of that program now because of this notion of DEI. Mr. Chairman, I know that every time this comes up at the subcommittees, but every time it comes up, I'm going to always rebut with facts. Chappie James was one of the most successful air fighter pilots, another Red Tail because he became a real fighter pilot and helped us to win that war. And I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:45:17):

Mr. Ciscomani?

Juan Ciscomani (01:45:20):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And one of the things that I talked to Secretary Duffy about as well, Mr. Duffy, was about a midair crash that happened on February 19th in Marana, Arizona. Two people died in that terrible accident. Mr. Duffy called it tragic. I agree. I know there's a report being compiled on that with more details on it. I know that we briefly talked about some of the potential reasons for that incident. But just to comment more than anything that I'm looking forward to receiving that report here from the FAA hopefully soon. Do you have any idea of a timeline that we could potentially be looking at? Are you familiar with the incident?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:46:10):

I am familiar with the incident. It was indeed a tragedy. I'm not familiar with the status of the report. I will certainly take that as an IOU and get back to you. It's one of those things where I continue to encourage, again, coming from business general aviation, is there's some very important equipment that I think people have an opportunity to equip their aircraft with that can increase safety in those circumstances. As I understand, it was an uncontrolled airfield at the time.

Juan Ciscomani (01:46:37):

It was, yeah.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:46:39):

But I commit to you to getting you the update on that report.

Juan Ciscomani (01:46:41):

Excellent. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:46:42):

Yes.

Chairman Womack (01:46:44):

Mr. Quigley.

Mr Quigley (01:46:45):

Mr. Chairman, I'll abide by your one question. It'll be a five-point question, if that's all right. No, I'm just kidding. There is a bipartisan Quiet Skies Caucus and on a bipartisan basis got provisions into the last reauthorization, including creation of an aviation noise officer, regional noise officers, and then a requirement that you review and revise the FAA noise standards. Where are we at with that, and will the budgetary issues affect that as well?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:47:18):

I am aware of it. I understand that we regularly engage in Quiet Skies Caucus efforts, not to mention community engagement. I can't tell you today, again, I'll commit to getting back to you, where we're at specific, but I can tell you that the budget that we are requesting goes directly to supporting those activities.

Mr Quigley (01:47:45):

I appreciate it. We don't have the time today, but I would appreciate you or your staff, if they could engage with myself and my staff to talk about this further and perhaps have an ongoing discussion with that bipartisan Quiet Skies Caucus. Thank you.

Chairman Womack (01:48:00):

Mr. Strong.

Mr Strong (01:48:04):

Mr. Administrator, I know that you mentioned earlier that you had a 35% failure rate in the training of air traffic controllers. I encourage you to maintain the highest of standards, never lower those standards. It was interesting for you to mention that.

(01:48:20)
In 2021, Huntsville International Airport was selected as one of the five locations of UAS detection and mitigation testing. Section 383 of the 2018 FAA Reauthorization Act directed the FAA to test and evaluate technologies and systems that can detect and mitigate potential safety risk posed by UAS at and near airports. Mr. Administrator, what is the status of that testing and what feedback have you received from DHS, DOJ, or other law enforcement partners?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:48:56):

Thank you for the question. Yes. In fact, the testing at Huntsville was very valuable. In fact, my understanding from my team is that 48 different UAS were tested and 30 different types of detection equipment were tested at five different airports, most recently up in New Jersey, but Huntsville was a particularly important part of that effort. What we learned from that effort was that the detection capabilities are there today and we are working with, whether it's airports or law enforcement, and certainly DOD and DHS, working closely with them to make sure that those detection equipment capabilities are there for the right people.

(01:49:34)
In addition to that, the mitigation piece, which we want to make sure, as mentioned earlier, since we're responsible for the safety of operating in the skies, we want to make sure that those mitigation efforts are carefully put in place because mitigation can in fact affect civil aviation traffic. So that's part of this effort that we're going through, both on the mitigation or the detection side, critically important, and then we partner with the appropriate law enforcement security agencies to do the mitigation piece.

Mr Strong (01:50:05):

Thank you, Mr. Rocheleau. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:50:07):

Thank you. Bring us home, Mrs. Torres.

Mrs Torres (01:50:09):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And there's two things that I want to ask of you, but I'm going to put them in writing to you. I just want to let you know about them today because they're critically important for some of my constituents. One is an update on where the six studies stand included in the 2024 FAA Reauthorization, studies on cabin air quality, temperature, radiation, and modern evacuation training.

(01:50:44)
And the other is on the PAPI system. You know it as the Precision Approach Path Indicator. It's a bipartisan supported program that requires a substantial update. It saved a lot of money on energy by replacing the bulbs. Can you give us an update on the progress of this program for the runways that still need to be updated?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:51:12):

I am familiar with the PAPI program. I do commit to getting you the status on both of those issues.

Mrs Torres (01:51:18):

Thank you, and I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:51:22):

And just in time. Pete, welcome back. You've got just a few seconds to ask your last question.

Mr. Aguilar (01:51:30):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You told me it was the best for last. You're not saying that in public anymore, but that's fine.

Chairman Womack (01:51:37):

Well, I kind of inferred that with Ms. Torres. But you made it back.

Mr. Aguilar (01:51:41):

I wanted to build ... Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate your indulgence. Mr. Administrator, I wanted to build off of what Ranking Member Clyburn discussed, and one of the programs that exists within your agency and within DOT broadly is the DBE program, the Disadvantaged Business Enterprise Program. The FAA Reauthorization Act included a bill that was mine that was specific for DBE supportive services expansion. It created a DBE supportive services program at the FAA. I appreciate that the FAA budget justification highlights that the FAA is prioritizing implementing DBE programs in FY26. However, the budget justification did not request funding for DBE programs.

(01:52:31)
Just as a refresher, these are small for-profit businesses, and at least 51% owned and controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals, women, minorities, other socially and economically disadvantaged groups. Oftentimes, our federal programs reward prime contractors and very big folks who have more compliance people than they know what to do with, and making sure that smaller businesses have an opportunity to bid on contracts and to procure is an incredibly important part of what we do. How does the FAA plan to implement the DBE program and this new supportive services program without requesting any funding?

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:53:19):

Well, I would start by saying understand the importance of this. As you mentioned, there are certainly those vendors out there that have kind of subs and that's how they conduct this. I know that both our disadvantaged business office, as well as our airports office, work together in executing these plans, working with airports, working with associations that support these as well.

(01:53:40)
So with respect to what we're doing as it relates to today's activities, I'll take the IOU to get back and come in and give a briefing to you and your staff to kind of where we're at next. I know we have a subject matter expert on that topic itself, and I'm happy to get him engaged.

Mr. Aguilar (01:54:00):

Specifically related to the funding. This is the Appropriations Committee and the funding and the resources that you decide to use as you implement this program, I'd be interested in seeing. And if you want to work with our office, I'd definitely take you up on that. Thank you.

Mr. Chris Rocheleau (01:54:15):

Very good. Thank you.

Chairman Womack (01:54:18):

Thank you. Mr. Administrator, thank you so much for being here today. I want to echo the sentiments that Mr. Cole made earlier about the quality of the hearing and certainly the quality of the witness, but I'm also mindful of the fact that you have a good staff of great people behind you, and Kate and Julie and Hannah and others across that spectrum do yeoman's work and are dedicated to the service of the general public and the taxpaying public. And so to the staff, I want to thank you for the work that you do as well.

(01:54:54)
I want to remind our members that you have seven days to submit any questions that you'd like submitted to the record with our subcommittee staff. Again, I want to thank everybody for being here today. Mr. Clyburn, as always, good to share the dais with you, and I hope it's a good week for you.

Mr. Clyburn (01:55:13):

Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for what I consider to be a very substantive hearing. I do and will always reiterate that we aren't asking, I've never asked for any standards to be lowered. I only ask for what I call fair, not preferential, but fair treatment. And so as a member of this committee, I'm going to always insist upon the record carrying that notion.

(01:55:47)
Mr. Chairman, when I was studying in college, I studied a man named Alexis de Tocqueville. I'm sure you're familiar.

Chairman Womack (01:55:57):

French nobleman.

Mr. Clyburn (01:55:58):

Yes, absolutely. He wrote a two-volume work called Democracy in America, and de Tocqueville wrote in that book that, "America's greatness is not that it is more enlightened than any other nation, but rather because she has always been able to repair her faults." That's what makes this country great. We find a fault and we repair it. That's how Daniel Chappie James Jr. became great, repairing a fault. Thank you, and I yield back.

Chairman Womack (01:56:33):

And on that note, this subcommittee stands adjourned.

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