Judge Alicia Washington (00:00):
Ms. Deller?
Mr. Lewis (00:00):
She is here. They're getting ready now [inaudible 00:25:22].
Judge Alicia Washington (00:00):
And do we have all of our jurors?
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We do.
Judge Alicia Washington (25:37):
All right, so we'll wait. Get her out. Did you, state and defense, get my email regarding the jury instructions?
Mr. Lewis (25:41):
Yes, ma'am. I think I fixed most of them and sent it back to you. I didn't fix the last one where you said with asterisk. I put the additional paragraph in there.
Judge Alicia Washington (25:50):
Yeah, I don't really like that instruction.
Mr. Lewis (25:52):
If we all agree, we're fine with it. So we can just talk about it together and see. If we don't, then we'll just go with the standard.
Judge Alicia Washington (25:58):
Okay. Mr. Smith, any comment or anything regarding the email I sent about the jury instructions?
Mr. Smith (26:06):
No. Mr. Lewis and I talked about it this morning.
Mr. Lewis (26:10):
I mean, if you want to do it once she gets out, if you want to do a quick charge conference, I can put it on the screen. We can walk through that stuff or if we-
Judge Alicia Washington (26:17):
No, I don't want to delay the trial. I just wanted everybody to have it. And then as far as the verdict form, there was no issues, Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith (26:29):
No.
Judge Alicia Washington (26:29):
All right. And then for the benefit of everyone that's in the audience, I'm not sure. There are more people here. I don't know if they're going to be coming in later. So if you see someone that wasn't here yesterday, make sure that they know the court's admonishment. You can't take any videos or photographs during the proceedings.
(26:52)
Today, we anticipate it's going to be a difficult day for both the state and defense. There's going to be some autopsy photos that are introduced. We need to make sure that if you believe you are going to have an emotional reaction to that evidence, you need to excuse yourself out the courtroom before they're brought in. It's very disruptive when you do it during the testimony. It's very disruptive for the jury.
Mr. Lewis (27:16):
And we've talked to... There's multiple people. As soon as we're calling Dr. Leslie over, as she's walking in, we're going to have everybody walk out so we can talk to them.
Judge Alicia Washington (27:23):
To avoid any of that, because again, we juries can't decide cases based on sympathy or any of that. They have to base it based on the evidence that's presented. And so we understand that that's natural reactions. We understand that it's not done with that intent, but again, we want both the state and defense to have a fair trial. Okay?
(27:44)
All right. And then when Ms. Deller is here, good morning. How are you? All right. And then do you guys need a few minutes or are we ready to walk them over?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Just a minute, if it's okay.
Judge Alicia Washington (27:56):
Just a minute?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah.
Judge Alicia Washington (27:58):
It'll take a minute to get them over lined up. Now, is state and defense, is anyone asking me to ask the jury a question again when we start, if they heard anything, seen anything?
Mr. Lewis (28:10):
I think in abundance of caution, it doesn't hurt to do that, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (28:13):
Okay.
Mr. Lewis (28:35):
Judge, do you mind if I test the computer again? Make sure it's working. We had a few hiccups yesterday. I think I figured why it was an issue, but... Perfect. Thank you, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (29:03):
All right. And everyone on Zoom, leave your video feeds off and stay muted throughout the testimony. We'll bring them over.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Can you just [inaudible 00:29:53].
Judge Alicia Washington (30:24):
All right. So can I give them a copy of [inaudible 00:30:25].
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (30:24):
And just for record purposes, we are walking the jury over on State v. Kaelin Savannah Deller, 24CF1197. State is present. That's Mr. Lewis. And where did Mr. Willick go?
Mr. Lewis (30:36):
He is just speaking to witness out front. I'm fine standing in as the intro.
Judge Alicia Washington (30:39):
All right. And then defense is Mr. Smith, Mr. Earls. Ms. Deller is now all here as well. All parties have indicated they are ready to proceed and we will have the jury seated momentarily.
Mr. Lewis (30:47):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
All rise. The jury is in the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:05):
All right. Good morning. Everyone can be seated. Real quickly, we'll just do a roll call if everyone's seated appropriately. So we have. 1. Smith. 2. Edwards. 3. Ryan. 4. Santiago.
Santiago (33:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:28):
5. Mulligan.
Mulligan (33:28):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:28):
6. Hazel Grove. 7. West.
West (33:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:28):
8. Wash.
Wash (33:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:28):
9. White.
White (33:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:28):
10. Frank?
Frank (33:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:28):
11 Freeman.
Freeman (33:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:40):
12 Riggs. 13 Haston. 14. Kevin. And so good morning. Thank you again for being here on time. Everyone ready to go?
Speaker X (33:45):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (33:46):
Put your jury badges back on, if you have them. Everyone make sure their pens are working. Everybody have enough paper? Anybody need additional paper or anything? All right.
(33:58)
Now I have to ask the question. Since you were released on yesterday, have any of you been exposed and viewed any media regarding the case, had any discussions or heard any discussions regarding this case since you were released on yesterday?
Speaker X (34:12):
No, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (34:14):
No? All right. All right. So we're ready to proceed. State?
Mr. Lewis (34:18):
Yes, ma'am. State's ready. We'll call to the stand Sean McGinn. Sean, you ready? This way, please.
Speaker 6 (35:01):
This way, please. If you can [inaudible 00:35:05].
Judge (35:14):
Can you please raise your right hand for me? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this cause will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Sean Begin (35:18):
I do.
Judge (35:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
May I begin, Judge?
Judge (35:18):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Good morning, sir.
Sean Begin (35:33):
Good morning.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Can you please introduce yourself to the jury, spell your last name?
Sean Begin (35:38):
My name is Sean Begin. First name is S-E-A-N, last name is B-E-G-I-N.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Where do you work, sir?
Sean Begin (35:46):
I'm employed by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement or FDLE in the biology and DNA section.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
What do you do there? What does that job do?
Sean Begin (35:56):
I am a crime laboratory analyst. My responsibilities include screening items of evidence for the possible presence of bodily fluids, conducting testing to identify those fluids if possible. I then collect samples for DNA testing, conduct that DNA testing, and I can sometimes make comparisons, report statistics, and then I compile all of these findings in a report and testify to them.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Can you tell us a little bit about your educational background, sir?
Sean Begin (36:20):
Yeah. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in biology from the University of Florida, as well as a Master's of Pharmacy also from the University of Florida with a specialization in forensic science.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Tell us a little bit about the training you received to become a crime laboratory analyst from FDLE.
Sean Begin (36:35):
Once promoted to the position of crime laboratory analyst, I underwent an approximately year and a half long training program that was proctored by FDLE. This training is separated up into two phases. The first phase is what you would typically expect training to be. I was reading a lot of textbooks and scientific literature, doing hands-on training with mock items of evidence, and I was completing written exams, practical competencies, and oral boards.
(36:58)
The second phase is what we refer to as supervised casework. At this point, I began handling actual items of evidence in real criminal investigations under the very, very, very close supervision of a previously qualified analyst. At the completion of phase two, I completed a mock trial, and I was then qualified by FDLE in May of 2024 to conduct independent casework.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
And do you annually take proficiency testing?
Sean Begin (37:24):
I do. I take proficiency tests twice each year.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Have you always passed those?
Sean Begin (37:27):
I have.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
All right. Good job.
Sean Begin (37:29):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
If you can, can you tell me during your career, how many times have you actually analyzed any evidence for DNA?
Sean Begin (37:38):
The last time I checked, which was approximately a week ago, I have at this time reported 800 different DNA cases.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
And that doesn't mean just one sample from each case, is that correct?
Sean Begin (37:49):
The number of samples can vary from case to case. I've had samples where there is no DNA testing that's conducted at all. It's purely serology, so that would be the testing for bodily fluids. I've also had cases where I've worked upwards of 15 to 20 DNA samples, so it varies from each instance.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
Would it be fair to say in the high hundreds, if not into a thousand or more samples?
Sean Begin (38:08):
I would say it's more than likely I've worked over a thousand samples in my career.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Is the FDLE lab accredited?
Sean Begin (38:16):
It is.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Who is it accredited by?
Sean Begin (38:18):
FDLE is accredited by the American National Standards Institute National Accreditation Board, but we just call them ANAB because it's easier.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Do you mind telling the jurors what actual DNA is?
Sean Begin (38:32):
Yeah. DNA is deoxyribonucleic acid. It is a really long name for a really long molecule, and it is found in every single cell of a human body with the exception of mature red blood cells. DNA is essentially the genetic blueprint that makes you unique from every other individual. You get half of your DNA from your biological mother and half from your biological father. And with the exception of identical twins, we would expect that every individual will have entirely unique DNA.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
Is it standard procedure for you to calculate statistics for DNA when you do testing on it?
Sean Begin (39:07):
If the data that I obtain is suitable for comparisons and I have standards for such comparisons, it is standard practice to calculate statistics, yes.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Are you trained in doing that, sir?
Sean Begin (39:16):
I am.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Have you done that multiple times in your career?
Sean Begin (39:21):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
I'm going to now bring your attention to case number 20240405911. It's Putnam County case number PCSO24OFF003571. Were you assigned a toothbrush and a partial rib bone to analyze to see if they match each other or are consistent?
Sean Begin (39:50):
I was. I was originally submitted the toothbrush as a secondary standard for Chad Mullen, and I was later submitted a partial rib bone with the intent of determining if those two profiles were the same.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Let's talk about the toothbrush. When you received the toothbrush, how did you process that?
Sean Begin (40:15):
With all items of evidence that I work, regardless of the exact type, I do follow certain standard operating procedures to ensure the quality of my testing. This will always begin by me cleaning or disinfecting my work area. I use what's called personal protective equipment, so this will be things like a lab coat, gloves, a hair net, and a face mask. And this is the same for every single item that I work. I then will only ever work one item at a time. With specific regards to the toothbrush that I worked here, I collected a cutting and a swabbing of the toothbrush. The intent of this sample was to determine possibly who was using this toothbrush as it was submitted as a secondary standard. So I swabbed the bristle portion in an attempt to collect any residual saliva if there. I also collected some cuttings from the bristles and put them in a tube for the DNA process.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
Now why would a toothbrush generally be a good sample for DNA?
Sean Begin (41:09):
Every cell of the human body with the exception of mature red blood cells does contain DNA. However, we would expect that bodily fluids, one of which being saliva, they do contain incredibly high concentrations of high quality DNA. So bodily fluids are kind of the gold standard for DNA testing because of the quantity and quality. Something such as a toothbrush that is used frequently inside of the mouth will collect a lot of saliva from the individual who's using it over time.
(41:33)
In fact, one of the regular standards that we receive for DNA testing is called a buccal swab, which is a swab of the inside of the cheek, and a toothbrush kind of serves that purpose in a less official capacity. In this particular instance, since there was not a buccal swab available for comparison, which we would call a primary standard, we use the toothbrush as a secondary standard.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
Were you able to obtain a full DNA profile from the toothbrush?
Sean Begin (42:00):
A complete DNA profile was obtained from the toothbrush.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
What does that exactly mean? I mean, we're not scientists. What does that mean?
Sean Begin (42:08):
There are a wide variety of results that we can get from our DNA testing and they kind of cascade from one another. One result is that the DNA results are not interpretable. This could be that there's either no DNA present at all or there's just too little for us to make objective conclusions. We then sometimes get single source profiles, and these are DNA results that indicate that all of the DNA that I'm seeing in my results is originating from one individual. These could be partial or complete. My testing looks at 24 different locations across the DNA sequence.
(42:38)
A complete profile means that I'm getting all of the information that I'm expecting at every single one of these locations. A partial profile means that I do have enough to interpret and make comparisons, but I might be missing a couple of these markers. We also do have mixed DNA profiles, which could indicate that the DNA I'm looking at originates from more than one individual. My laboratory has methods for interpreting samples that consist of two, three, and four donors. Anything more than four donors would be deemed too complex for us to interpret.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Subsequently, did you receive a rib bone purporting to be from Chad Mullen?
Sean Begin (43:19):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
And would that have been FDLE item number 38?
Sean Begin (43:25):
The partial rib bone was item 38, yes.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
How do you go about testing a bone for DNA?
Sean Begin (43:37):
My laboratory does have standard procedures for extracting DNA from bone samples. Essentially, what we will do is we will take a small cutting of that bone, small enough that we can actually grind it up into a powder, and then from that powder, we can send it through the same DNA testing process with a few modifications to help get through the difficulties of working bone, and then we can still generate a DNA profile from that.
Speaker 4 (44:01):
Were you able to generate a profile from the rib bone?
Sean Begin (44:08):
A complete DNA profile consistent with a male individual was obtained from the rib bone.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
And then finally, the final step, did you compare the toothbrush to the rib bone to make a determination?
Sean Begin (44:19):
I did.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
And what was the results of that?
Sean Begin (44:22):
The DNA profile obtained from FDLE item 38, the rib bone, is consistent with the DNA profile obtained from item 28, which is the secondary standard of the toothbrush.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
May I have just a moment, Judge?
Judge (44:34):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
No further questions, Judge.
Speaker 5 (44:40):
I have no questions.
Judge (44:40):
Thank you.
Sean Begin (44:40):
Thank you.
Speaker X (44:40):
[inaudible 00:45:05].
Speaker 5 (45:42):
Your Honor, the state would call Dr. Lisnikova.
Judge (45:43):
Can you please raise your right hand for me? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this cause will be the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Lisnikova (46:06):
I swear.
Judge (46:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
Morning, ma'am. You want to have a seat, please? Thank you.
Dr. Lisnikova (46:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
Can you please state your name for the record?
Dr. Lisnikova (46:26):
My name is Jana Lisnikova. And
Speaker 5 (46:30):
Where do you work?
Dr. Lisnikova (46:31):
I'm working as a medical examiner in District 23 medical examiner's office.
Speaker 5 (46:37):
And as a medical examiner, are you a licensed physician?
Dr. Lisnikova (46:40):
That's correct.
Speaker 7 (46:40):
Louder. We can't hear her.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
Okay. Dr. Lisnikova, yes, if you can-
Dr. Lisnikova (46:41):
You can hear me well?
Speaker 5 (46:45):
Yes. If you can pull it up a little bit. Yeah. Thank you. That mic doesn't pick up everything.
Dr. Lisnikova (46:53):
Yeah. Can you hear me now?
Speaker 5 (46:54):
Yes, I think so. Thank you. And Dr. Lisnikova, how long have you worked as a medical examiner?
Dr. Lisnikova (47:01):
I've worked as a medical examiner basically since 2006, but originally I've worked as a medical examiner in Denmark, but after we moved to United States, I retook my residency and fellowship, and now I'm working as medical examiner. It's pretty much the same positions that I used to work in Denmark.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
Okay. And how long have you worked as a medical examiner with St. John's County?
Dr. Lisnikova (47:32):
St. John's County, I'm working since July 2022.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Okay. And I take it you're licensed to practice medicine in the state of Florida?
Dr. Lisnikova (47:41):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (47:42):
And how long have you held that medical license?
Dr. Lisnikova (47:46):
State of Florida, I have medical license since 2021.
Speaker 5 (47:55):
Tell us a little bit about your education becoming a medical doctor.
Dr. Lisnikova (47:59):
To become a medical doctor, I finalized medical school. After medical school, I worked as a physician in training, similar to residency fellowship in Denmark. After we moved to US, I've done United States medical examination and took residency in pathology and fellowship in forensic pathology.
Speaker 5 (48:28):
Where did you attend medical school?
Dr. Lisnikova (48:31):
I took my medical school in Russia in Moscow.
Speaker 5 (48:37):
Okay. and when did you graduate?
Dr. Lisnikova (48:39):
I graduated in 1992.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Tell us a little bit about the residencies you completed for your education.
Dr. Lisnikova (48:45):
First residency I completed was residency in pathology and forensic pathology in Denmark. The second residency was residency in pathology in United States and fellowship in forensic pathology.
Speaker 5 (49:02):
Where'd you take those residencies in the US?
Dr. Lisnikova (49:05):
I took residency partially in North Carolina, in Greenville, North Carolina, partially in Chicago, in the Rush University.
Speaker 5 (49:14):
Did you complete any fellowships?
Dr. Lisnikova (49:16):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
And where was that?
Dr. Lisnikova (49:18):
Miami-Dade Medical Examiner's Office.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
Did you have any additional training to become a medical examiner?
Dr. Lisnikova (49:28):
I have PhD in pathology and molecular biology, and I had some years ago, I had observership in Miami-Dade Medical Examiner Office. It was before we took decision to move to United States.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
Are you board certified in pathology and as a medical examiner?
Dr. Lisnikova (49:55):
I'm board certified in pathology, in anatomic pathology and in forensic pathology.
Speaker 5 (50:03):
Can you tell us a little bit about what's involved in that certification process?
Dr. Lisnikova (50:07):
Certification process involved that you are a medical doctor, so you finalized a medical school, you passed United States licensing examination, you completed your residency and possibly fellowship. It depends on what kind of certification is it.
Speaker 5 (50:29):
Sure. Okay. And tell us a little bit, what are the duties of a medical examiner?
Dr. Lisnikova (50:34):
As medical examiner, the main duty is certification of cause of death and manner of death. And to perform this certification, it's a several way it can be done. Most known that it's a medical examiner performing medical-legal autopsies, which is completely true, but it's also other ways to certify death. It's by external examination or by review of medical records.
Speaker 5 (51:02):
Can you tell us, just give us kind of a guesstimate over the course of your career, how many autopsies you performed?
Dr. Lisnikova (51:11):
At least 1500.
Speaker 5 (51:14):
Were any of those involving firearms or death by firearm?
Dr. Lisnikova (51:18):
No, of course not. Not all of them, but it was a substantial number of autopsies and deaths due to firearms and lesion gunshot injury.
Speaker 5 (51:29):
Okay.
Dr. Lisnikova (51:29):
But I cannot unfortunately tell exact number.
Speaker 5 (51:32):
Just a substantial number?
Dr. Lisnikova (51:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (51:34):
Okay. Doctor, have you provided opinion testimony in court regarding the cause and manner of death in your capacity as a medical examiner?
Dr. Lisnikova (51:45):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 5 (51:47):
Can you give us an idea of how many times?
Dr. Lisnikova (51:54):
It's probably 30 times at least.
Speaker 5 (51:57):
Your Honor, I would now tender this witness to the defense as one who is qualified to provide opinion testimony in forensic pathology.
Judge (52:05):
All right. Any objection?
Speaker 4 (52:07):
No objection.
Judge (52:07):
[inaudible 00:52:09].
Speaker 5 (52:09):
Thank you. Now, doctor, can you give us an explanation between the definitions of antemortem, perimortem, and postmortem?
Dr. Lisnikova (52:21):
Antemortem, it's before death. Perimortem, it's about time of death. I cannot say exactly time, but it's around time of death, just before, during the process of death and just after. And postmortem, it's after death.
Speaker 5 (52:44):
Okay. So antemortem, before death, perimortem, about the time of death?
Dr. Lisnikova (52:44):
Around the time of death.
Speaker 5 (52:44):
And postmortem-
Dr. Lisnikova (52:44):
And postmortem after death.
Speaker 5 (52:50):
Okay. Thank you. Who performed the autopsy of the victim in this case, Chad Mullen?
Dr. Lisnikova (52:56):
I did.
Speaker 5 (52:59):
And when did your office receive Mr. Mullen's body?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:01):
We received a body on...
Speaker 5 (53:06):
And do you have to refer to your notes?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:07):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (53:08):
Okay.
Dr. Lisnikova (53:08):
Yes. I do it. On October 29th.
Speaker 5 (53:11):
And was that in 2024?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:11):
Yes, in 2024.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Okay. And when was the autopsy performed on Mr. Mullen?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:20):
Autopsy was performed on District 23 medical examiner's office in St. Augustine.
Speaker 5 (53:26):
And was that on the same day, October 29th?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:28):
It was performed on October 29th.
Speaker 5 (53:31):
Okay. Were investigators with the Putnam Sheriff's Office present for that autopsy? And again, are you referring to your notes?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:42):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
Okay.
Dr. Lisnikova (53:43):
Thank you. Yes, they did, but I just need to check name.
Speaker 5 (53:50):
And you don't have to worry about the name, you just recall them being present?
Dr. Lisnikova (53:58):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (53:58):
Okay. Now, when Mr. Mullen's body was received, did you conduct an examination or conduct an exterior examination?
Dr. Lisnikova (54:08):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (54:09):
Okay. Can you describe the condition of the body?
Dr. Lisnikova (54:13):
We received a body in sealed body bag. It's a standard procedure that body from the scene delivered to medical examiner's office in sealed body bags. At the medical examiner's office, we open body bag, we cut a seal and open body bag. Inside the body bag, we saw Mr. Mullen's body and multiple different thing covering the body. It was numerous.
Speaker 5 (54:55):
Can you give an explanation of the level of decomposition you observed?
Dr. Lisnikova (55:03):
I would say at moderate decomposition. The body was decomposed, but still moderately decomposed. Skin was intact. Tattoos was visible.
Speaker 5 (55:17):
Okay. Were you able to determine when death occurred?
Dr. Lisnikova (55:22):
No, I cannot determine when death occurred.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
And why was that?
Dr. Lisnikova (55:27):
Determination of time since death, it's very uncertain because it depends of multiple factors. It depends of where body was placed. It depends of humidity. It depends of temperature. So it's too many ambient factor can play a role. So general determination of time of death, it's a difficult issue, but in case like this, it's very difficult.
Speaker 5 (55:57):
Would the level of moderate decomposition, did that also play into factor, make it difficult to determine date or time of death?
Dr. Lisnikova (56:08):
It's also part of it, but I would say in generally determination of cause of death is challenging. And in cases when body was buried and body was dead for uncertain amount of time, and we don't exactly know in which condition, it's not possible.
Speaker 5 (56:33):
As part of your investigation process, did you learn that the body had been buried or recovered from under the ground at some point?
Dr. Lisnikova (56:43):
Yes. I have received information from our medical examiner investigation who was attending a scene.
Speaker 5 (56:55):
Okay. Were you able to make any determination how long the body was buried?
Dr. Lisnikova (56:59):
No.
Speaker 5 (56:59):
Okay. And again, the same factors you just explained?
Dr. Lisnikova (57:03):
I cannot do it.
Speaker 5 (57:07):
Okay. And the body was sealed in a bag when you received it, when your office received it?
Dr. Lisnikova (57:11):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (57:14):
Okay. Once the bag was opened, can you give a little description as to what the items you found inside that bag?
Dr. Lisnikova (57:22):
Yeah, I can do.
Speaker 5 (57:24):
And you're referring to your notes for memory?
Dr. Lisnikova (57:26):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (57:26):
Thank you, ma'am.
Dr. Lisnikova (57:32):
I will do it. We received from the body bag, we recovered a orange strap, black cord, red hook, purple net, blue rope with metal parts, yellow strap, multicolored blanket, blue tarp, blue rope with a blue wire, white sheet, a green and black blanket. We recovered five sheets with debris from the processing place, rope with wire. I'm not sure about blue strings. It can be that it was a part of the clothing. It can be that it's a item that was recovered from body bag.
Speaker 5 (58:45):
Okay. And was the body photographed before the actual autopsy was performed?
Dr. Lisnikova (58:52):
That's correct. The body is... It's multiple photographs. The standard procedure in... When it's a multiple layer of items in the body bag, the standard procedure is that you remove one layer of items and take new photos. So it's substantial number of photographs in this case. So basically when we removed item from the body bag, items was photographed and the body was photographed how after item was removed.
Speaker 5 (59:28):
After photographing each layer of removal, were the items that were recovered with the body provided to law enforcement?
Dr. Lisnikova (59:37):
Yes, they were provided to law enforcement. They were released the same day, on October 29th, 2024.
Speaker 5 (59:48):
Now, do you recall if the body had any clothing on it?
Dr. Lisnikova (59:53):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (59:54):
And can you tell us what items of clothing the body had?
Dr. Lisnikova (59:57):
The items of clothing was two shoes, two socks, shirt, a pair of shorts, and I'm not sure about this blue string.
Speaker 5 (01:00:23):
Okay. Now, once the body was removed from the bag, were x- rays taken of it?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:00:31):
That's correct. It was also taken multiple x-rays because x-rays was also taken when the body was received in the body bag to demonstrate all these items that were in a body bag. And it was also taken repeated x-rays in the process of removing items, and of course x-ray of the body after everything was removed.
Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
And what's the purpose of taking x-rays of the body if the body was going to be autopsied?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:01:02):
The purpose to taking x-rays is that when we are taking x-ray, so we are looking for foreign bodies that could be, for example, a radio or pack, for example, metal projectile. We are looking after fractures which are perfectly visible on the x-ray, and we are looking after some dislocation in joints or status of teeth or everything we can see in the x-ray.
Speaker 5 (01:01:43):
Now, once all the items with the body were removed, including the clothing, is the body cleaned?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:01:50):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:01:51):
And then is the body photographed at that point for any exterior injuries?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:01:56):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
And did you conduct a thorough examination of the external part of the external area of the body?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:02:06):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
You mentioned that it had moderate to severe decomposition and that it appeared to have been buried, or you learned that it had been buried for a period of time. Could you say for how long, or was there a period of time could you determine that the body was above ground prior to being buried?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:02:32):
I cannot answer this question. Decomposition occur regardless, is it body buried or body not buried? Decomposition, it's a natural reaction of the body after death. So tissue is decomposing after death, and how much the process of burial affect decomposition, I cannot answer.
Speaker 5 (01:02:56):
Okay. Could you tell if the body had ever been placed in water at any point?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:03:02):
No, I cannot.
Speaker 5 (01:03:03):
And again, is that just based on the level of decomposition?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:03:08):
Generally, placement in the water does not leave any kind of visible time. It could be, but it was not in this situation.
Speaker 5 (01:03:21):
Okay. Now, in your external review of the body, did you notice or observe and document any tattoos?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:03:30):
Yes, he had multiple tattoos.
Speaker 5 (01:03:33):
And what's the purpose for documenting tattoos on a body?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:03:38):
It's multiple purposes for documented tattoos on the body. The first and most important, it's identification of the body, which was done in this case. And generally, description tattoo is a part of a standard external examination description.
Speaker 5 (01:04:00):
Now, were you provided pictures of Mr. Mullen's tattoos and documentation of Mr. Mullen's tattoos to compare with what you observed on the body?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:04:14):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:04:15):
And were you able to make an identification of the body based on the pictures of Mr. Mullen's tattoos?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:04:22):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:04:22):
And what was your determination?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:04:25):
The determination was we received a photograph, antemortem photograph with a very clear image of tattoos on the body, and comparing of the tattoos, shape, color, and placement, antemortem on this photograph we received with the tattoos we saw on the body of Mr. Mullen, it was identical. So he was identified by comparing on antemortem tattoos and postmortem findings.
Speaker 5 (01:04:58):
Okay. And did you then conduct an external review of the body for any observable injuries.
Dr. Lisnikova (01:05:04):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:05:06):
What did you observe?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:05:09):
On Mr. Mullen, I found a entrance type wound defect on his left arm, a round defect on his right side of the neck or shoulder. And I found a laceration on his right upper part of the abdomen.
Speaker 5 (01:05:39):
Now, regarding the two injuries you observed in the left upper arm and the right shoulder, based on your training experience, what were those injuries consistent with?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:05:57):
They were consistent-
Speaker 7 (01:05:57):
[inaudible 01:06:00].
Speaker 5 (01:06:01):
I'm sorry, Doctor.
Dr. Lisnikova (01:06:02):
They were consistent with gunshot wounds.
Speaker 5 (01:06:04):
Okay. And you said that those two injuries, again in the left upper arm and the right shoulder, consistent with gunshot wounds, were they consistent with, was it more than one gunshot?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:06:24):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
Okay. You mentioned a injury of the abdomen. Can you give us a little bit of a explanation as to what you observed of that injury?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:06:41):
Injury of the abdomen is superficial in nature. It's injury of the skin and subcutaneous tissue. And this injury does not have hemorrhage of surrounding soft tissue. Of my experience, I would say this injury most likely occur after Chad Mullen's death.
Speaker 5 (01:07:07):
Okay. You mentioned a red hook that was recovered with the body.
Dr. Lisnikova (01:07:11):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:07:12):
And if I may approach, Your Honor.
Judge (01:07:24):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:07:27):
Just showing you what's been marked as State's 11. Is this the item that-
Dr. Lisnikova (01:07:34):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:07:36):
... was consistent with the red hook you recovered with the body?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:07:39):
Yes. This item is consistent.
Speaker 5 (01:07:41):
And based on the nature of this red hook and your opinion based on your training, education, experience, would that injury have been consistent with being caused by this red hook, the one to the abdomen?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:07:54):
It could be.
Speaker 5 (01:08:08):
Okay. And the lack of hemorrhaging around the wound to the abdomen, that suggested to you that was postmortem or after death?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:08:15):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:08:21):
Now, all of these injuries, were they photographed by you?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:08:26):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:08:29):
Now, after the completion of the exterior review, did you then do an interior review of Mr. Mullen's body?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:08:36):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:08:38):
And was that autopsy documented in photographs as well?
Dr. Lisnikova (01:08:40):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:08:41):
Okay. Your Honor, may I approach the witness again?
Judge (01:08:49):
[inaudible 01:08:51].
Speaker 5 (01:08:50):
I'm going to show you what's been pre-marked as JJ 11 through 20. Dr. Lisnikova, if you can just take a minute and just thumb through at your table here, just all 20 pictures, please.
Dr. Lisnikova (01:09:05):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 (01:09:55):
Now, doctor, are these photographs of the autopsy of Mr. Mullen, the items found with him, and his injuries?
Speaker 5 (01:10:00):
Mr. Mullen, the items found with him and his injuries?
Doctor (01:10:03):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:10:04):
And do they fairly and accurately depict your observations during this autopsy?
Doctor (01:10:10):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:10:11):
Your Honor, at this time, the state would move into evidence State's Exhibit JJ1 through 20.
Judge (01:10:16):
Any objection from the defense?
Speaker 8 (01:10:18):
No objection.
Judge (01:10:18):
[inaudible 01:10:21] as State's 39.
Speaker 5 (01:10:35):
At this time, Your Honor, the state would publish these pictures to the jury.
Judge (01:10:41):
I see.
Speaker 5 (01:10:47):
So Doctor, in a picture that's labeled A, what are we looking at?
Doctor (01:10:51):
On this picture, we are looking for body bag, which is sealed by this yellow seal. It's a way how we receive the body.
Speaker 5 (01:11:03):
Okay. And that ensures the preservation of the evidence inside?
Doctor (01:11:07):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:11:10):
Doctor, referring to picture labeled B, what are we looking at?
Doctor (01:11:15):
We are looking for body bag, which is marked by decedent's name and case number.
Speaker 5 (01:11:27):
I'm going to refer you now to picture C. What are we looking at in this picture?
Doctor (01:11:31):
On this picture, we see body of Mr. Mullen covered with multiple items, exactly the way how we saw it when the open body bag.
Speaker 5 (01:11:45):
And is this essentially how you just explained earlier, you removed each layer of item and then document it in photographs?
Doctor (01:11:53):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:11:57):
And looking at picture D, if you can see in the center right of the picture, is that documenting the red hook found with the body?
Doctor (01:12:14):
Oh, yes, I see it.
Speaker 5 (01:12:15):
Yes.
Doctor (01:12:15):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:12:16):
Right, this photo?
Doctor (01:12:16):
Yes, right here. I see.
Speaker 5 (01:12:29):
And Doctor, what are we looking at in this picture?
Doctor (01:12:32):
On this picture, we see a body with a rope and-
Speaker 5 (01:12:39):
Is that a rope or is that some type of netting?
Doctor (01:12:41):
It's some type of netting. Yes, it's some type of netting.
Speaker 5 (01:12:55):
Okay. Doctor, I'm going to show you the next picture. This is F. Is this a picture that's documenting the moderate to severe decomposition to Mr. Mullen's body?
Doctor (01:13:08):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:13:10):
And on that picture, the top left, it looks like his left shoulder, is that documenting the tattoo to Mr. Mullen's left shoulder?
Doctor (01:13:20):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:13:23):
And was that the tattoo you used to compare with the photos of when Mr. Mullen was alive?
Doctor (01:13:30):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:13:30):
Okay. I'm going to refer you to photograph G. What are you documenting in this picture?
Doctor (01:13:42):
On this picture, we're documenting this round defect on the skin, which is consistent with the gunshot wound.
Speaker 5 (01:13:50):
And that would be to Mr. Mullen's upper left arm?
Doctor (01:13:54):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:14:01):
Photograph H?
Doctor (01:14:04):
It's the same photograph.
Speaker 5 (01:14:06):
And that's just a closeup again of the wound to the upper left arm?
Doctor (01:14:10):
Yes, it's the same wound.
Speaker 5 (01:14:16):
Okay. Now paragraph I, just to orient everyone in this picture, Doctor, can you tell us where Mr. Mullen's head is?
Doctor (01:14:23):
Here, it's here. Here it's a head, neck and shoulder. So the arm.
Speaker 5 (01:14:29):
Okay. And this would be-
Doctor (01:14:31):
Right.
Speaker 5 (01:14:32):
Okay. Thank you. So that's his right shoulder?
Doctor (01:14:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:14:36):
And it looks a little bit maybe front or upper part of the right shoulder, top part?
Doctor (01:14:42):
Yes. It's the upper part of the right shoulder, close to the neck.
Speaker 5 (01:14:51):
Is this essentially a closeup of that wound in the upper right shoulder?
Doctor (01:14:56):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:15:02):
And showing you paragraph K, what are we looking at in this picture?
Doctor (01:15:07):
On this picture, we are looking for laceration of the abdomen. Here, you can orient. Here, it's a flunk. Here, it's a tie flunk and armpit is here. So we are on the upper part of the [inaudible 01:15:26]. We are here.
Speaker 5 (01:15:28):
So again, just to orient ourselves in this picture, the lower torso and the legs are to the left of the picture?
Doctor (01:15:35):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:15:43):
Okay. And Doctor, is this documenting the red hook that was recovered with Mr. Mullen's body?
Doctor (01:15:48):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:15:56):
Photograph M, Doctor, are these some of the ropes recovered with the body?
Doctor (01:16:03):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:16:09):
Photograph N, again, are these some ropes and cords recovered with the body?
Doctor (01:16:15):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:16:22):
Doctor, photograph O, is this that purple netting that was recovered?
Doctor (01:16:27):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:16:34):
And photograph P, are these some of the straps you mentioned?
Doctor (01:16:39):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:16:44):
Doctor, I'd like to show you, is this one of the x-rays taken of Mr. Mullen's body?
Doctor (01:16:51):
Yes. It's an x-ray taken... It's an x-ray of the chest.
Speaker 5 (01:16:56):
Okay. And if you can orient ourselves with this picture, what would be... Is the body lying on its back?
Doctor (01:17:10):
We have a chip on the top. We have a spine going down. We have clavicles going to the side, and here it's a chest. It's the right side of the chest and left side of the chest. Here, if you can imagine, heart is placed there.
Speaker 5 (01:17:29):
At this point, were you able to determine what those items in the center of the picture were?
Doctor (01:17:37):
At this point, I can say that it's a three radiopaque items within the chest and chest wall.
Speaker 5 (01:17:56):
At this point, the body has not been opened up, so this is just purely what you're seeing on the x-ray. You don't know what those items are?
Doctor (01:18:05):
No.
Speaker 5 (01:18:36):
Doctor, if you want to have a seat. One moment, please.
(01:18:51)
So before I show you the remaining pictures, upon conducting the actual autopsy of Mr. Mullen's body, would you further describe what you recovered and what you observed regarding the wound that was consistent with the gunshot to the right shoulder?
Doctor (01:19:19):
Yes. I observed, as you saw on the photos, a defect of the skin on the right shoulder or right neck. I observed a perforation defect of the soft tissue of the chest wall and perforation defect of right lung. And I found a projectile fragment in the tissue of the right lung.
Speaker 5 (01:19:51):
And were you able to determine the... So the item that you found in the right lung, what was that consistent based on your training and experience?
Doctor (01:20:03):
It's a projectile fragment.
Speaker 5 (01:20:05):
And you say projectile, what people commonly refer to as a bullet?
Doctor (01:20:08):
Bullet.
Speaker 5 (01:20:09):
Okay. Were you able... During the course of your investigation, were you able to determine the travel or the course of travel of that round through Mr. Mullen's body beginning at the right shoulder?
Doctor (01:20:23):
Yes. I can probably... It will be easiest to show. It goes from the neck down.
Speaker 5 (01:20:32):
And Doctor, if you want to... Thank you.
Doctor (01:20:35):
Yeah. It goes from the entrance wound here somewhere on the neck down and to the left. And what did I say about deviation from to back? No, it was not possible to deviation from front to back. So it's a projectile... The projectile is downwards, left to right, and it was not possible to identify deviation from to back.
Speaker 5 (01:21:17):
Were you able to use like a rod or anything to make that determination as a direction of travel? Yes. Okay. And the fragment was recovered and what part of the lung was the fragment covered?
Doctor (01:21:32):
It was recovered from the medial part of the lung.
Speaker 5 (01:21:37):
Okay. And based on your training experience, what would that have caused the body with that type of injury?
Doctor (01:21:46):
This type of injury can cause basically two major problems. It can cause internal hemorrhage when a hemorrhage occurs in the chest cavity, which can ruin very significant amount of blood. And the second problem, it's a perforation of the covering of the lung when lung collapsed and respiration is getting not possible.
Speaker 5 (01:22:14):
And did you observe any exit holes or exit wounds related to that projectile?
Doctor (01:22:20):
No.
Speaker 5 (01:22:20):
Okay. And then you said you were able to recover that fragment of a projectile?
Doctor (01:22:26):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:22:28):
And was that provided to law enforcement?
Doctor (01:22:31):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:22:35):
Now, are you familiar with what stippling is?
Doctor (01:22:40):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:22:41):
What is it?
Doctor (01:22:43):
Stippling is a small superficial abrasions of the skin surrounding the wound.
Speaker 5 (01:22:48):
And what causes that?
Doctor (01:22:51):
Usually stippling causes a gunpowder which is not burned, which creates some kind of superficial abrasion like tattoo like abrasions on the skin around the wound.
Speaker 5 (01:23:06):
Did you observe any indication of stippling to the wound in the upper right shoulder?
Doctor (01:23:13):
No, I did not.
Speaker 5 (01:23:14):
Based on your training experience, what did that suggest to you?
Doctor (01:23:16):
It suggests that it was a certain distance between firearm and the skin. We usually call this kind of wound distant range, gunshot wound. Otherwise, many forensic pathologists call it undetermined range of gunshot wounds, because in reality, you cannot say much about range. Okay.
Speaker 5 (01:23:38):
But you can say it was not a contact in terms of... The firearm was not contacting the skin at the time of firing?
Doctor (01:23:45):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:23:46):
Okay. It had to be some distance away, you just don't know what that distance was?
Doctor (01:23:50):
Distance will depends strongly of multiple things.
Speaker 5 (01:23:58):
Okay. And prior to providing that projectile fragment to law enforcement, did you photograph it?
Doctor (01:24:05):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:24:10):
Okay. Now, can you provide further explanation as to the gunshot wound to the upper left arm?
Doctor (01:24:18):
The gunshot wound to upper left arm, we cannot see it. I cannot show it on the x-ray, so unfortunately I can show it only on myself. The gunshot wound to the left arm have entrance wound on the lateral aspect of the left arm, and bullet travels through the soft tissue of the left arm in chest cavity. So it travels above the axilla. In the chest cavity and close to the chest... In the chest cavity wall, I found small projectile fragment, which was recovered and photographed, and afterwards, a bullet passed a chest wall and the fragment was found in the bone, in the tissue of the lung, of the left lung.
Speaker 5 (01:25:14):
And just want to clarify, that wound to the upper left arm, it didn't exit on the other side of the arm. It traveled into the left arm and into the chest cavity, never exiting?
Doctor (01:25:29):
No, it's not re-exit because it was high enough.
Speaker 5 (01:25:32):
I see. And what damage did it cause the bone, the humerus bone in the left arm?
Doctor (01:25:42):
Let me check. I believe it was a fracture.
Speaker 5 (01:25:45):
And you're referring to your note, Doctor?
Doctor (01:25:52):
Yeah. I would... Transformed. Yeah, it was fractured.
Speaker 5 (01:25:55):
It was fractured?
Doctor (01:25:55):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:25:55):
Okay. And then when it entered the chest cavity, did it fracture any of the ribs?
Doctor (01:26:02):
Let me check again. Yes, it's fractured fourth and fifth ribs.
Speaker 5 (01:26:27):
And then looking at this... And were you able to recover the fragments of that projectile?
Doctor (01:26:35):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:26:36):
Okay. And those are the two fragments that we're looking at to the one in the right of the spine and then one-
Doctor (01:26:43):
This fragment and this.
Speaker 5 (01:26:48):
Okay. And were both of those fragments, once you recovered them, were they provided to law enforcement as well?
Doctor (01:26:54):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:26:55):
And did you document those fragments and pictures prior to handing them over to law enforcement?
Doctor (01:27:01):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:27:01):
Can you tell us, number one, was there any exit wound associated with the gunshot wound to the left arm?
Doctor (01:27:09):
No, it was no exit.
Speaker 5 (01:27:11):
Can you tell us what that particular gunshot wound, what level of injury it would've caused in the chest cavity?
Doctor (01:27:19):
It's a similar injury. Injury to chest cavity can causes accumulation of blood in the chest cavity and it can cause perforation of lung coverings with collapsing of the lung tissue.
Speaker 5 (01:27:33):
So Doctor, if you want to have a seat now, thank you. And I'll grab that pointer from you. Thank you. I'm going to refer you to the screen again. I'm showing you picture R. Is this the fragment that was recovered from the left chest wall?
Doctor (01:28:00):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:28:03):
Okay. And so it didn't... This wasn't the fragment that you recovered inside the lung, it was actually still in that muscle or chest area?
Doctor (01:28:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:28:09):
For the rib area?
Doctor (01:28:11):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:28:11):
Okay.
(01:28:14)
Showing you photograph S, is this the projectile that was recovered... I'm sorry, the fragment projectile that was recovered from the left lung?
Doctor (01:28:25):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:28:28):
Okay.
(01:28:28)
And then photograph T, is this the fragment of the projectile that was recovered from the right lung?
Doctor (01:28:36):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:28:38):
Doctor, could you... Based on your training experience, could you determine the caliber of these projectiles?
Doctor (01:28:43):
No, I cannot.
Speaker 5 (01:28:44):
Why is that?
Doctor (01:28:47):
Generally, it's difficult to define a caliber of projectile, especially if it's deformed and fragmented. It can bring too much uncertain energy.
Speaker 5 (01:28:58):
And Doctor, based on your opinion, would the combination of both gunshot wounds to Mr. Mullen have caused his death?
Doctor (01:29:05):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:29:06):
Based on your training experience, how can you tell the gunshots to... Those gunshots to Mr. Mullen's body occurred while he was still alive?
Doctor (01:29:19):
First, I can see hemorrhage in the chest cavities, which is a sign for it was a circulation of blood at that time. And I see... Give me a second. Have I seen... Yeah, it was a blood in chest cavity in the right and left chest cavities.
Speaker 5 (01:29:53):
Based on your training experience, could you determine which gunshot occurred first?
Doctor (01:29:59):
No, I cannot.
Speaker 5 (01:30:02):
So based on your training, experience, your review of all the evidence, have you formed an opinion as to the cause and manner of Mr. Mullen's death?
Doctor (01:30:09):
Cause of death is two gunshot wounds to the chest and manner of death is homicide.
Speaker 5 (01:30:19):
Now, without immediate medical attention, would these injuries have resulted in his death?
Doctor (01:30:25):
Say it again.
Speaker 5 (01:30:26):
Without immediate medical attention, these injuries would have caused his death?
Doctor (01:30:32):
That's correct.
Speaker 5 (01:30:34):
Okay. Now, in your investigation, did you consult with a forensic anthropologist?
Doctor (01:30:39):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:30:40):
Do you remember who that was?
Doctor (01:30:42):
It was Dr. Hillel Cheney.
Speaker 5 (01:30:45):
And what was the purpose of consulting with a forensic anthropologist?
Doctor (01:30:49):
Forensic anthropologist, they are, by their education and profession, they are working with decomposed and skeletonized bodies, and they are really good to... They have their own methods, how to investigate it, which we cannot do as forensic pathologist because they have their own ability to make their own tests. And that's why I decided to get a second opinion from anthropologist to examine this.
Speaker 5 (01:31:22):
And is that a normal procedure to consult with the anthropologist in cases like this?
Doctor (01:31:28):
It's pretty much, yes.
Speaker 5 (01:31:30):
Okay. And did she prepare a report?
Doctor (01:31:32):
Yes, she prepared a report.
Speaker 5 (01:31:34):
And did you review that report?
Doctor (01:31:35):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:31:36):
And based on that determination by the anthropologist, was that consistent, the injuries that she observed, was that consistent with your opinion and what you observed?
Doctor (01:31:46):
Yes, it's consistent.
Speaker 5 (01:31:52):
Doctor, to further identify the victim, was a DNA sample obtained from the rib bone of Mr. Mullen?
Doctor (01:31:59):
Yes. We submitted rib for DNA sampling.
Speaker 5 (01:32:05):
Okay. And was that provided to law enforcement for further testing?
Doctor (01:32:09):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (01:32:10):
Now, Doctor, I know you mentioned there was a level of decomposition with Mr. Mullen's body, but were you still able to investigate and inspect the organs from his body?
Doctor (01:32:21):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:32:22):
Okay. And based on your analysis of those organs, based on your training and experience as a medical examiner, were there any signs of any natural diseases or any other trauma that would have contributed or caused his death?
Doctor (01:32:41):
Let me check again to be sure. No, I did not find any significant medical condition that can cause his death.
Speaker 5 (01:33:12):
One moment please, Your Honor.
(01:33:23)
Thank you. Nothing further.
Judge (01:33:24):
[inaudible 01:33:25].
Speaker 8 (01:33:27):
I have no questions.
Judge (01:33:28):
All right. Thank you, ma'am.
Speaker 5 (01:33:32):
Thank you, Doctor.
Speaker 8 (01:33:47):
Judge, the state would call Special Agent Bobby Blythe to the stand.
Judge (01:34:37):
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this cause will be the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Bobby Blythe (01:34:43):
I do.
Speaker 8 (01:34:58):
Good morning, sir. How are you doing?
Bobby Blythe (01:34:59):
Good morning.
Speaker 8 (01:35:00):
Could you please introduce yourself to the jury, spell your last name?
Bobby Blythe (01:35:03):
Good morning. My name is Bobby Blythe. I'm a special agent with the FBI in Jacksonville, Florida. Blythe is spelled B as in boy, L-Y-T-H-E.
Speaker 8 (01:35:12):
Do you mind telling us your education background, please?
Bobby Blythe (01:35:15):
Sure. I have a Bachelor's of Business Administration from the University of North Florida with a major in accounting. I did some post-baccalaureate work to get the credits I needed to sit for the certified public accounting exam. I worked in public accounting for three and a half years after graduating from UNF before joining the FBI, and I obtained my CPA license.
Speaker 8 (01:35:35):
How long have you been with the FBI?
Bobby Blythe (01:35:37):
For about 18 years.
Speaker 8 (01:35:39):
Can you tell us what training you had to go through to become part of the FBI?
Bobby Blythe (01:35:43):
We go through a five month, 20 week or so academy in Quantico, Virginia on the Marine Corps base there and learn things about how to conduct investigations, defensive tactics, firearms, different investigative techniques, interviewing skills and tactics, and then we're assigned to a field office where we're on probation for another year and a half.
Speaker 8 (01:36:04):
Where are you currently... With Jacksonville, what sort of assignment do you currently have with the FBI?
Bobby Blythe (01:36:10):
I'm embedded with a violent crimes task force in Jacksonville, Florida. I'm technically part of a headquarters unit. I stayed in the same cubicle, but I transferred to the FBI cellular analysis survey team as a full-time member in mid 2025, and we call it CAST for short, and it's a group of about 115 special agents across the FBI's field office that specialize in the analysis of historical mobile device or cell phone based location information.
Speaker 8 (01:36:44):
Can you tell us what sort of training you've received to become a member of the CAST team?
Bobby Blythe (01:36:49):
We receive over 300 hours of classroom and practicals-based training over a two to three year period, depending on how our training progresses. And while we go through the training and certification process, we work as a journeyman, if you will, for an already certified field asset to gain experience with working with records, and it goes from a basic class to an advanced class. We go through a critical incident readiness exercise, simulating a command post environment, such as if there's a child abduction or a mass shooting, and we have to identify a suspect device and then track that device down using real scenarios from the past. And then our certification is very special in that we get training directly from the cellular providers, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon, both from their network engineers and their court order personnel that tell us about what kind of records they have, how to get those records, and we have to work through a real case study in the city we do our certification in and have a moot court type practical.
Speaker 8 (01:37:52):
Does your job include analyzing data generated by cell phone usage?
Bobby Blythe (01:37:55):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:37:57):
And what kind of cellular phone data do you analyze?
Bobby Blythe (01:38:00):
We look at what's called mostly call detailed records with cell site that have information about the date, time, duration of phone calls, similar to what you would see on your phone bill, but it also has information about what tower, cell phone tower, and then side of that tower that was used to connect that the phone connected to that allows us to show an approximate location for a device. We also can look at data sessions, which is your phone's gateway to the internet through the cellular network, and we look at what's called timing advance that gives a calculated distance that the phone is from the tower.
Speaker 8 (01:38:38):
Do you also sometimes work with, I guess, live signaling?
Bobby Blythe (01:38:42):
Yes, we receive... So we use this technology historically to look at where devices were in the past relevant to specific circumstances. We also use it real time to find missing persons, to find suspects of crime, to track suspects of crime or aid in surveillance operations, lawful surveillance operations. And so we can obtain what's called precision location information, which is estimated latitude, longitude location that the cellular provider is able to calculate for the device.
Speaker 8 (01:39:17):
Do you participate in training other law enforcement, military, or civilians in the area of electronic surveillance?
Bobby Blythe (01:39:23):
Yes. As part of our maintaining our professional standards and just as far as outreach to other agencies, we provide training mostly in the form of a two-day basic course to state, local, and other federal agencies about how to use these records to further their investigations.
Speaker 8 (01:39:42):
Have you analyzed cell phone location data before?
Bobby Blythe (01:39:45):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:39:46):
Approximately how many times do you think?
Bobby Blythe (01:39:48):
Several hundred times or more approaching a thousand.
Speaker 8 (01:39:52):
Have you testified in court rendering an opinion as to the approximate location of cell phones based on analysis and review of records before?
Bobby Blythe (01:39:59):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:39:59):
Approximately how many times have you testified to that, sir?
Bobby Blythe (01:40:01):
I've testified in about 62 jury trials.
Speaker 8 (01:40:07):
Have you had an opportunity during your career and during your time with CAST to check the records you received from the phone, I guess, agencies or phone companies for their accuracy?
Bobby Blythe (01:40:20):
Yes. So I've used this technology to locate numerous missing, endangered children, missing persons, whether alive or deceased, to recover evidence, to see where suspects are, find them, or to see where they were and corroborate they were there on video at a later time.
Speaker 8 (01:40:41):
May I approach the witness, Judge?
Judge (01:40:53):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:40:54):
I'm going to approach and show you what's marked as II for identification purposes. Can you take a look at that, see if you recognize it and then look up when you're done, sir?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:06):
I do.
Speaker 8 (01:41:08):
Okay. How do you recognize that?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:09):
It's a copy of my report I prepared related to this investigation.
Speaker 8 (01:41:13):
And you generated that report yourself?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:14):
I did.
Speaker 8 (01:41:15):
Did you generate that report based on the cell phone records that you received for different individuals?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:21):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:41:22):
And you actually yourself plotted it and mapped it?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:25):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 8 (01:41:26):
And have you had experience doing this kind of mapping before, sir?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:29):
Yes, numerous times.
Speaker 8 (01:41:31):
In the hundreds, you would say?
Bobby Blythe (01:41:32):
Yes. I receive over a hundred requests for assistance from state and local agencies. Sometimes it's several numbers in one investigation, and that's been the case each of the last four years.
Speaker 8 (01:41:45):
Thank you, sir. Judge, at this time the state would move in state's II as the next exhibit.
Judge (01:41:49):
Any objection?
Speaker 5 (01:41:50):
No objection.
Judge (01:41:53):
State's 40.
Speaker 8 (01:41:59):
Is that number 40, ma'am?
Judge (01:42:00):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:42:01):
Thank you. So I'm now showing you what's marked as state's 40. If you can, is this just a cover page you put together?
Bobby Blythe (01:42:19):
Yes.
Speaker 8 (01:42:19):
Can you describe what you put on here and why?
Bobby Blythe (01:42:22):
Yeah. So there's my name, my field office. I'm assigned to our case number. Would you like me to stand up to-
Speaker 8 (01:42:29):
Yeah, I was trying to find our pointer.
Bobby Blythe (01:42:37):
Yes, sir. Thank you.
(01:42:41)
Here's our FBI case number, the local case number, and the three target cell phones that I was asked to review. Would you like me to read those?
Speaker 8 (01:42:50):
If you can right now and then we'll circle back. I want to educate them a little bit how it works first, but if you can just document that and then we'll circle back to those.
Bobby Blythe (01:42:56):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 8 (01:42:57):
Okay.
Bobby Blythe (01:42:58):
So the first number in Magenta or pink is (386) 466-4049, a T-Mobile phone number attributed to Caylen Deller in this investigation. (312) 933-7943, a T-Mobile phone number attributed to Chad Mullen in this investigation. And (386) 336-5446, an AT&T phone number attributed to Tina Lee Ellis in this investigation in red. And the colors will correspond to the visual representations of the cellular network activity you'll see on the slides to follow. And all the information taken from the cell phone records in what's called call-out boxes will also be color coded the same way.
Speaker 8 (01:43:44):
Let's talk about if you can explain how... I mean, we all have cell phones. I don't think anyone knows how it works. Can you explain how that works to us?
Bobby Blythe (01:43:53):
So cell phones are very smart devices now, but at their most basic level, they work similar to a handheld radio or a walkie-talkie you might have played with as a kid in that they use radio frequency to communicate. However, unlike that handheld radio, they don't communicate handset to handset. They communicate through a repeater, if you will, or the cellular network cell phone towers that you see scattered around town. The cell phone is very smart though. It's constantly scanning its environment, measuring signal strength and quality. And for phone calls, the phone actually selects the tower with the best signal at that time. That usually results in the phone selecting the closest tower geographically to it, but there can be exceptions such as manmade or geographic obstructions like mountains, ravines, or large tall buildings that might block the line of sight between your phone and the closest tower.
(01:44:56)
But even if a phone doesn't select the closest geographic tower, it's still going to be a nearby adjacent or neighboring...
Mr. Lewis (01:45:00):
... graphic tower, it's still going to be a nearby adjacent or neighboring tower and not a tower all the way across town, if you will.
Mr. Lewis (01:45:10):
If you could just tell us how actually a cell tower works in, I guess it's sectors, if you can explain that.
Mr. Lewis (01:45:17):
Yes. On the left, you'll see four common configurations in Northern Florida, just a traditional metal pole with ... You'll see a three-sided array of antennas on top and this is the overhead view that shows what they look like. They create the three sides of the tower. In the US, most towers, 95% or so, are still in a three-sided configuration. That's how they divide up the three sides of the tower to best provide coverage to the customers. You might see a fake tree mounted on rooftops, a flagpole and several other types of examples. Out west, you might see a fake cactus. So each side is represented, in what you'll see in the maps that follow, by a wedge or a sector.
(01:46:05)
This is the outline of one of three sectors as designed by T-Mobile or AT&T to provide coverage in a given geographic area. The arms represent the boundaries of that sector based on the design of the provider, which is approximately 120 degrees wide, 360 degrees in a circle. Divide that by three, typically, our sector is 120 degrees unless otherwise noted. And you'll see this arch and shaded area on the inside of these wedges. That's simply meant to emphasize the direction of coverage being emitted from that sector, not the true coverage area or the exact location of the phone.
(01:46:45)
Just know that a phone will be somewhere ... For call detail records with cell site with no distance calculation, the phone will be somewhere in the usable coverage area of that tower and sector. And I'll explain in a moment how you can generally estimate that.
Mr. Lewis (01:47:00):
Let me ask you a question. So for example, let's say our point is ranging over here. Would that generally come off of sector number three, it wouldn't be off sector number one?
Mr. Lewis (01:47:11):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (01:47:11):
Okay. So the sectors just correspond with the location of where that point would generally be within that sector somewhere?
Mr. Lewis (01:47:18):
Yes. And the red dot at the base of the wedge represents the base of the cell phone tower where that tower is actually located.
Mr. Lewis (01:47:28):
And if you can explain what we're looking at here so we know later on.
Mr. Lewis (01:47:34):
To take it further, this is an illustration of one of three sectors on this tower here in this hypothetical map. This map isn't related to this investigation directly. It is one of three sectors being used. This is the base of the tower and it's all plotted on a map. This is another tower in that cellular network for that provider. There's a point of reference. We'll call it a reference tower. It helps aid in the estimation of the coverage area of the tower and sector that is used. Generally, towers cover roughly two-thirds of the distance to the next tower consistently. There may be areas of coverage that are usable beyond that, that are more inconsistent, but the closer you get from tower A that's being used by the phone to tower B, the more likely the phone will be handed off from the closer tower [inaudible 01:48:33] the network to the phone.
Mr. Lewis (01:48:48):
Next slide. Can you just [inaudible 01:48:50] is captured and stored by the cell phone companies during the process of when we use our phone?
Mr. Lewis (01:48:59):
Yeah. So the phone company keeps information about the date, time, duration of phone calls incoming and outgoing, the direction of the call. It also has information about who you're in communication with, who called you, who did you call, their phone number and it has information about which cell phone tower inside or sector of that tower that was used for that communication. It can be records about data sessions, how many bytes up and down from the tower to data transfer to and from the tower and what tower and sector was used. And also they have what's called timing event signaling we'll talk about in a minute that provides a calculated distance how far the phone was from the tower.
Mr. Lewis (01:49:41):
So looking right here, you might get information and it might be formatted. Can you explain what the formatting of that event box is for us?
Mr. Lewis (01:49:51):
Yeah. So whenever I display a tower and sector, and this example is related to an outgoing phone call, you'll see a call-out box. And for T-Mobile, there'll be green as the background. CID stands for cell identification number. The first six digits here is related to 4G network configuration or cell tower, but that identifies the tower itself or cell site. And the number after the hyphen is the sector ID. So those two numbers combined are a unique number for that tower and that side of the tower in all of the T-Mobile's network, for example. And then I'll provide the date, the time, the direction of the call, the azimuth of the sector, which how many degrees on a compass it's pointed in and then the associate phone number, who the target cell phone is in communication with. And that's all taken directly from the records.
Mr. Lewis (01:50:51):
And let me ask, just so that the jury understands, let's get to timing advance first, then we'll circle back. Go to the next slide. Could you explain what timing advance is, sir? And then I'll ask you a followup question, okay?
Mr. Lewis (01:51:11):
Timing advance, you can think of as like an air traffic control system or a sophisticated traffic control system for a busy intersection where there's traffic needing to go a bunch of different directions and people need to know when to stop and when to go. And now let's think of that busy intersection at rush hour, but there's a lightning strike and that system goes down. What's going to happen within 30 seconds? There's probably going to be a traffic crash or a near miss at the airport. So what timing advance does is it tells your phone when to stop and when to go as far as sending data to the tower.
(01:51:50)
So TDOA stands for time delay of arrival. So if your phone is half a mile from a tower versus five miles from a tower, it takes longer for that signal to get to the tower if you're five miles away versus half a mile. So it needs to know roughly how far your phone is from the tower so that your communication, your data can arrive at just the right time window to be received by the tower. If not, it will crash just like at that busy intersection when the power goes out. So what it does is the tower sends a tiny signal from the tower to the phone and the phone relays it back.
(01:52:29)
The network is running a stopwatch as if somebody was running a race out and back and it measures the time and then uses distance equals rate times time, a simple physics equation to calculate the distance that the phone was from the tower. The rate, the constant, is the speed of light.
Mr. Lewis (01:52:49):
Now getting timing advance records from a phone company, do those usually dissipate or are they gotten rid of by the company much quicker than just the cell tower signalization?
Mr. Lewis (01:53:03):
Yes. For T-Mobile, these records are only retained for 30 days. AT&T keeps them closer to 13 months, which is much different than the other two major providers, but T-Mobile is 30 days.
Mr. Lewis (01:53:18):
So for example, law enforcement with a T-Mobile phone is unable to get it until day 45, you wouldn't have any timing advance records, but you might have that signalization showing which actual tower it's hitting without an actual location?
Mr. Lewis (01:53:32):
Correct. Just tower and sector and no distance. And so the distance is the inside leading edge of this band and the width of this band is 78 meters, which is how far the signal would travel in the time slot available for that signal to arrive. So these bands are drawn 78 meters wide for 4G across the 120-degree sector that was used for that signaling event. And that provides a much more precise location for where the phone is. Generally, the phone is going to be found the majority of the time inside this shaded band.
Mr. Lewis (01:54:23):
Move on in just one second. I want to ask a few follow-up questions. When you receive timing advance records and also the sector cell phone plotting, are you able to map that on a map and show the jury what it means?
Mr. Lewis (01:54:39):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (01:54:39):
Okay. So let's move on to, we're looking at this slide right here. Can you describe to the jury what we're looking at right here, sir?
Mr. Lewis (01:54:51):
Yes. This is an overview of the area around Putnam County and Palatka is in the center and it shows several pertinent locations provided by the investigative team that are relevant to this investigation. And also it provides the cellular network as it existed at the time of this incident for AT&T and T-Mobile.
Mr. Lewis (01:55:15):
Why is there nothing for Verizon?
Mr. Lewis (01:55:17):
So because there wasn't a Verizon phone, target cell phone in this case.
Mr. Lewis (01:55:22):
And if I can ask you, in reference to, you had mentioned Putnam County, does this also include parts of St. Johns County on this side of the river?
Mr. Lewis (01:55:30):
Yes, it does.
Mr. Lewis (01:55:30):
Okay. And you had pointed out, for example, this red spot, that's Chad Mullen's residence. You've never been to his residence, you don't know where it is, that's something that's provided by law enforcement to you?
Mr. Lewis (01:55:42):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (01:55:43):
Okay. And you just basically take the locations they give you and you plot them on the map?
Mr. Lewis (01:55:48):
Yes, as a point of reference.
Mr. Lewis (01:55:50):
Okay. So just so the jury is clear, the red one, that is Chad Mullen's, is that correct, residence?
Mr. Lewis (01:55:56):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (01:55:57):
The orange or yellowish one in the middle right there, that is 465 San Mateo Road, Deller residence is what you have it as?
Mr. Lewis (01:56:06):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (01:56:07):
Or the jury's heard it as Stormy Stables. The green one, whose is that?
Mr. Lewis (01:56:14):
The Lee-Ellis residence located at 131 Pine Street, Satsuma, Florida.
Mr. Lewis (01:56:18):
And then the blue one in the top by where it says Federal Point.
Mr. Lewis (01:56:22):
This is the body recovery scene located approximately 880 Hastings Federal Point Road, East Palatka, Florida.
Mr. Lewis (01:56:29):
And then you also included a traffic camera. Can you point out where that is?
Mr. Lewis (01:56:33):
That's located over here at 206 and US 1, just west of the Crescent Beach sign on the map.
Mr. Lewis (01:56:47):
So let's jump right in. What date and around what time were you asked to map out for us for court?
Mr. Lewis (01:56:58):
During September 9th, 2024.
Mr. Lewis (01:57:02):
Okay. And did you start around 8:00 or so?
Mr. Lewis (01:57:05):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (01:57:08):
Okay. And I know you explained everything, but this is a little confusing. So just describe what all these curves mean and then what our signalization is here and then we'll ask some specific questions, okay?
Mr. Lewis (01:57:21):
So this is a visual representation of the cellular network activity for all three target cell phones in this investigation. The phone ending in 4049 in pink attributed to Deller, 7943 in green attributed to Mullen and 5446 attributed to Lee-Ellis in red. The activity for all three phones is shown. The beginning of the timeframe starting at approximately 8:02 PM is provided in the call-out box at the top left of the map and that's the tower near the Roberts Ranch Outfitters sign on the map. The timing advance activity starts the timeframe with this van closest to the tower that intersects geographically and visually with the Chad Mullen residence, basically meaning it's about the same. The distances calculated for the green phone and the pink phone is about the same distance from the tower as that residence is from the tower.
(01:58:29)
That's why it intersects visually and geographically. And then it shows the movement of the green and pink phones south and east towards the vicinity of the Deller residence and the Lee-Ellis residence near the Highway 17 sign on the map.
Mr. Lewis (01:58:48):
So just so we understand, let's start with the, we'll call it purple color. Is that good?
Mr. Lewis (01:58:54):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (01:58:55):
Okay. So the purple starts around 8:00 and 8:06. It's bouncing off. Is that bouncing off two towers near the Deller residence or the Stormy Stables?
Mr. Lewis (01:59:05):
I'm sorry, yes. When I was saying the 8:02, that's the victim's phone that's up here. These two, the pink phone starts this timeframe down here, utilizing the sector facing to the south and west at 8:00 PM, 240 degrees, 0.58 miles from the base of the tower. And then the next time for it is 8:06 to the north and east. And I apologize, actually, it moves towards the Chad Mullen residence in this timeframe.
Mr. Lewis (01:59:37):
You're fine. So just so the jury understands, so we have around 8:06 here, and then right around 8:16, it looks like the purple phone is bouncing off here and then moving this direction. Is that right?
Mr. Lewis (01:59:50):
Yes. So the timeframe starts here between the two residences. Then the next activity is near the San Mateo sign. Then the next activity at 8:16 is just east of the Palatka or west of the Palatka sign on the map, on the west side of the river. And then it moves north and west. 8:25 is this one at 422, the band that crosses Highway 100. And then you'll see the times in the two boxes at the top of the map, 8:24, which is on this tower here, the bands that are farther from this tower, 269575. Then 8:25, 23 is 4.9 from the tower located here, 265368. And that's the bands here near the, I think that says Bardon sign on the map. So basically, it shows the movement of the phones north and west of the pink phone or purple phone, as you said, north and west.
Mr. Lewis (02:00:56):
And I'm fine with ... If you want a pink, it's good. I'm not good with colors. But ultimately, we see that it's basically Ms. Deller's phone is matching up with being at the residence of Chad Mullen?
Mr. Lewis (02:01:12):
Yes, it's consistent with that. And also one concept to explain is that, in isolation, yes, the phone could be anywhere at one timing advanced band taken by itself. But when you have timing advance bands from opposing towers that have intersecting timing advance bands, so calculated distances that intersect visually and geographically, the phone's going to be found at or near the area of intersection when those bands or those calculations are made close in time. So for example, you have 8:24 in 37 and 8:25 in 23, less than a minute apart, and those intersect in this area. So where you have intersection, you're going to find that phone in this area of intersection.
Mr. Lewis (02:01:54):
And Mr. Mullen's phone, obviously, it's looking like at 8:02, 8:25 in those times over here, still generally by his residence?
Mr. Lewis (02:02:04):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:02:04):
Okay. Now we see Ms. Ellis's phone right here. It looks like that there's no timing advanced for her. Is that correct?
Mr. Lewis (02:02:17):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (02:02:17):
Okay. So we're just looking in this one. For the jury, this is just the sector of the cell tower and it's somewhere in that sector?
Mr. Lewis (02:02:25):
Correct. And so this is an AT&T tower. The nearest other AT&T tower is over here across the river. So this tower covers a wide area here, south and east of that sector.
Mr. Lewis (02:02:39):
And you had mentioned earlier that water can cause a tower to maybe amplify or go over a larger area. Would that be consistent if there's water here, it can cause it to go over a larger area?
Mr. Lewis (02:02:52):
Yes. Bodies of water tend to amplify radio frequency and cause it to propagate further than it otherwise would on regular terrain. You can think of it like, if you go fishing, you need polarized sunglasses because the light is so bright off of that water. The same concept is true with radio frequency. It's just invisible light, not in a visible spectrum.
Mr. Lewis (02:03:20):
These locations, is that consistent with Ms. Deller possibly being, I'm sorry, Ms. Lee-Ellis being at her residence?
Mr. Lewis (02:03:27):
Yes, it's consistent with that. It's very conceivable that that tower and sector includes in its coverage area the Lee-Ellis residence.
Mr. Lewis (02:03:39):
Okay. And then if we ... I think this is just a ... We talked a little bit about it, so we don't have to spend too much time. This is just the zoom in showing all the intersections basically at Mr. Mullen's residence?
Mr. Lewis (02:03:50):
Yes. And the one ... Let's see. The one closest to that residence would be the 8:25 one at 4.9 miles.
Mr. Lewis (02:04:07):
Why is this green darker than those greens?
Mr. Lewis (02:04:10):
So that means that the more distance calculations, the more events that are displayed at a particular distance, the darker it will get as they stack up on top of one another and more opaque.
Mr. Lewis (02:04:27):
Now, are we looking at another time window right here going from 8:30 to 9:00 basically or 8:59?
Mr. Lewis (02:04:34):
Yes. This shows between 8:30 PM and 8:59 PM and the beginning of the timeframe, the target cell phones began utilizing the two towers, east and west, of the Chad Mullen residence.
Mr. Lewis (02:04:49):
So basically at 8:35, 8:30, it looks like the phones are still near the residence. And then maybe at 8:48, do they start moving? It looks like they start moving downward.
Mr. Lewis (02:05:04):
Yes. The timing advance distances for both target, the green and pink phone, are represented at these bands that intersect with the Chad Mullen residence between 8:30 and 8:44. Then at 8:48, there's a band timing advance for the pink phone along Highway 100, most likely to the south of the Mullen residence. Then the 5-1 corresponds to this call-out box to the left, just north of the Manville sign on the map and it shows several timing advanced bands as the target, the pink and green phones move into the black area and then move across the St. Johns River towards East Palatka by 8:59.
Mr. Lewis (02:05:49):
Now, why is there not timing advanced every second, every two seconds that we have? Is there a reason why timing advance is generated sporadically?
Mr. Lewis (02:05:58):
Yeah, it's intermittent. It's network signaling that its main purpose is for troubleshooting on the network, the reason network engineers want to review it, but it's also, like I said, it's there to make sure that your signals arrive at the right time. If a phone is more stationary, there's less timing advanced. In my experience, if a phone is moving, the network signals more so that it can keep track of the movement of the phone and there's more timing advanced. However, it's not every second and it's intermittent. Think of it as snapshots in time.
Mr. Lewis (02:06:34):
So based on these records though, it appears they began 8:35 and moves from 8:59 are basically all the way over in East Palatka at that point, heading south from the Bardon area?
Mr. Lewis (02:06:48):
Yes. And I also want to point out that not every event is displayed from the record. So this is a representative sample for presentation purposes to show the movement and the route of travel. If I were to show every single event, it'd be very difficult to show the date, time and distance calculated for each one.
Speaker 9 (02:07:08):
Mr. Lewis, let me just pause you for a minute. I'm reading body language. Let's take a brief recess, okay? Some of you, I'm starting to nice the body language-
Mr. Lewis (02:07:17):
No, no, this is-
Speaker 9 (02:07:18):
... so let's take a brief recess.
Speaker 10 (02:07:20):
All rise as jurors exit the courtroom.
Speaker 9 (02:07:30):
When everyone is done and you're ready, just knock on the door.
Judge (02:07:32):
All right. And I believe [inaudible 02:26:50] State and Defense ready?
Mr. Smith (02:26:52):
Yes, ma'am.
Mr. Lewis (02:26:52):
State's ready, Your Honor.
Judge (02:26:53):
All right.
Speaker 11 (02:26:53):
All rise as the jurors enter the courtroom.
Judge (02:27:34):
The jury has returned. Everyone can be seated. If the jurors would look up when everyone's ready. All right, we're ready to go. All right, Mr. Lewis, you can resume.
Mr. Lewis (02:27:52):
Thank you, Judge. So we already talked about... We're going to move on to the next slide. So this is the time hour from 9:00 to 9:30. Can you just draw us what's happening as we're going here?
Mr. Lewis (02:28:12):
Yes, you'll see a red arrow displayed here in the middle of the map that it shows the general overall direction of movement of the device. And it picks up where the last slide left off. The last slide, the phones had moved across the St. John's River into East Palatka. And then this is displaying starting at 9:00 AM for both phones. This is the pink phone, 1.41 miles from the tower. This is the green phone, 1.84. And they progress farther south towards the vicinity of the Deller residence.
(02:28:47)
These bands displayed at the sector facing to the south and west, 240 degrees, first at 9:05 for both target cell phones within seconds of one another have similar distance calculations, same tower, same sector, almost the same distance, 0.39 versus 0.34. So they're displayed right next to one another. The bands are calculated in increments of 78 meters or 0.05 miles.
(02:29:15)
And then the phones next are from 9:10 forward are utilizing the sector facing 180 degrees due south. And these bands that are, one of which is on top of and the rest of which are just beyond the Deller residence. And one thing that's important to explain is that the majority of the time, the phone will be found inside the shaded area of the band, but the phone could be one or two bands closer to the tower than the band displayed because there's things that can slow down that signal as it goes from the tower to the phone and back, which could cause it to appear that the phone's slightly farther away than it really is.
Mr. Lewis (02:30:00):
So all of these bands right here are consistent with Chad Mullen's and Caylen Deller's phone being at or near the Deller residence or the Stormy Stables?
Mr. Lewis (02:30:10):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:30:10):
Okay. And just in reference to, we have Tina Marie Ellis's phone. Is this just bouncing off the tower? There's no timing advance records for that?
Mr. Lewis (02:30:20):
Correct. So what we know from this phone call is just tower and the side of the tower that was used, the sector facing generally to the south and east at 120 degrees. So this tower and sector covers a pretty large area. It's very likely the Lee Ellis residence is an overlapping coverage area between the AT&T towers and the area.
Mr. Lewis (02:30:47):
And if we go to the time window from 9:32 to 10:30, what is the cell phone record showing us at this time? And we don't really see a lot of green. Can you explain why, even though there's green markings there?
Mr. Lewis (02:31:01):
Yeah. So you'll see the darker shaded pink here, that's where there's overlapping green phone activity at the same time. It stacks them up based on frequency and where they're at. And so they're both here, especially in this third band, in this section of four bands. But you'll see corresponding times for each phone 9:32, 9:32 for both at 0.83 and 0.78. That's the sector facing due south and the bands located along here next to and just south of the Deller residence.
(02:31:38)
And then where you see the numbers next to the time switched to 2:40, that's when the pink phone begins to use the sector facing to the south and west at 9:42 and moves to the south and west more consistent with being at the Lee Ellis residence.
Mr. Lewis (02:32:00):
So around, just so we're clear, so around 9:42, Caylen Deller's phone starts to move toward the residence of Lee Ellis. And then I guess we have these right here timing advances putting it within like basically on the residence there?
Mr. Lewis (02:32:17):
Yes. The first one is the 0.58 one that's here where you can see it start moving away from this area. And then the next one for the pink phone is the 9:43, 1.21. That's this band in between. And then after that, 9:47 and on, the pink phone is utilizing these bands bracketing the Lee Ellis residence. Meanwhile, the Mullen phone in green continues to use the sector at 120, 180 degrees facing due south that's more consistent with the Deller residence.
Mr. Lewis (02:32:55):
So those two phones, just so the jury's clear, are basically separating at that time. Caylen Deller's phone is going this direction and Chad Mullen's phone is staying stationary at her residence?
Mr. Lewis (02:33:08):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (02:33:15):
Then if we look, our next time window is from 10:30 to basically 12:00, 11:59?
Mr. Lewis (02:33:21):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:33:22):
What is that showing us now?
Mr. Lewis (02:33:25):
The pink phone by 10:30 is moving back into the area of the Deller residence. That's this... Well, 10:51, I apologize, is the closest band here. But the bands located here near the Deller residence right up against it and then just to the south of it start at 10:30 PM.
Mr. Lewis (02:33:49):
And Chad Mullen's phone is still basically staying stationary that 0.78 miles away. And that's the band right there, the darker one?
Mr. Lewis (02:33:57):
Yes. The green and pink phones are using the same tower, same sector and adjacent or approximately the same distance calculations here.
Mr. Lewis (02:34:11):
And then if we go to 12:00 to basically 1:00, 1:00 AM, what are we looking at right there?
Mr. Lewis (02:34:19):
So this shows the timing advance activity and one voice phone call for the pink phone, 4049. But it shows timing advance measurements consistent with what we saw on the last slide in the same area as the Deller residence, roughly the same distances away. And you see corresponding measurements at 12:01, 12:02, 12:30 and 31, 33 and 36 for both phones.
Mr. Lewis (02:34:50):
So Mr. Mullen's phone is basically, it's 0.73, 0.68, 0.78, 0.73, basically away estimation from the tower?
Mr. Lewis (02:35:01):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:35:01):
Okay. And basically that's consistent with it being near the Deller residence or at the Deller's residence?
Mr. Lewis (02:35:05):
Yes. It's consistent with that, yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:35:10):
Then if we go to 1:00 to 1:56 AM, what is it showing us now?
Mr. Lewis (02:35:17):
Yes. At the beginning of the timeframe, you see the number here, that's the degrees on the compass of the sector bases that's being used at 1:00, 1:09. The Deller phone is still using this sector 180 degrees, but then as of 1:15 AM, it's utilizing the sector facing the south and west, and this distance calculation moving back towards the Lee Ellis residence. And then during the remainder of the timeframe, the pink phone's calculated to be these three distances from the tower, which are consistent with the Lee Ellis residence. And there's one timing advance event during this timeframe for the green phone, the Mullen phone, utilizing the same tower, same sector, and the same distance as some of the Deller phone's timing advance distances consistent with the Lee Ellis residence.
Mr. Lewis (02:36:14):
So it appears as if Mr. Mullen's phone has traveled to the Lee Ellis residence or in that vicinity?
Mr. Lewis (02:36:23):
Yes, it's consistent with being in that area.
Mr. Lewis (02:36:31):
Then if we look at the next timeframe, 2:07 AM to 2:58 AM, do we see both phones basically still at the Lee Ellis residence?
Mr. Lewis (02:36:44):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:36:45):
Okay. Or consistent with being there?
Mr. Lewis (02:36:46):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:36:46):
Okay. And then do we have one, I guess, data that is not a timing advance for Lee Ellis? And is that consistent with being in where her house is?
Mr. Lewis (02:36:59):
It is.
Mr. Lewis (02:37:01):
Bless you. Now it gets... I feel like you just took a protractor and you're drawing crazy stuff. Can you explain what's going on here now?
Mr. Lewis (02:37:15):
So we're picking up where we left off. The first event displayed here is at 3:04 AM for the pink phone, the Deller phone. So this is East Palatka near Highway 17, north of where we were looking at before. And so as these bands are plotted, and whenever you look at timing advance, you can see movement because you see the bands move here at 3:04 to the next one displayed is 3:10 for the pink phone. That's this one at 1.17 miles from the tower at 235 degrees. Then the next one, 3:14, is at the sector facing to the north and east, 2.18 miles from the base of the tower. So you can see the progression and movement of the phone.
(02:38:06)
And so my job is to apply the practical, or the practical to the technical or the technical to the practical rather. And so, yes, these bands, the phone technically could be anywhere inside these bands, but when you see a phone moving like this at a high rate of speed, that means the phone's not on foot, with a person on foot. It's in a vehicle moving with a person at a higher rate of speed, and that it's on a highway moving.
(02:38:34)
So this slide is showing the movement of the pink phone and the green phone north and east towards this area, the vicinity of the blue flag north of Hastings. You can see the intersecting bands from multiple towers, the tower located south and east of the Spuds and 207 sign on the map, the tower just south and west of the Elkton sign on the map, 3:14, 3:13, 3:18, timing advanced measurements.
Mr. Lewis (02:39:09):
And so Chad's phone or Mr. Mullen's phone and Mrs. Deller's phone, it appears as if they are going in this area right here, too, bouncing right around the area where the body would've been recovered?
Mr. Lewis (02:39:25):
Yes. In that same area. Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:39:26):
Okay. And we have Ms... Just so the jury understands, we have this red mark from Ms. Ellis' phone. No timing advance, but is this consistent with being near where the body recovery is?
Mr. Lewis (02:39:45):
So yeah, the Lee-Ellis phone has a data session on the tower just to the east of the Deep Creek Conservation Area sign on the map. And it's consistent with the target cell phone being in the same area as the body recovery scene.
Mr. Lewis (02:40:00):
And is this a closer up of it just showing how the phones are basically bouncing right around there?
Mr. Lewis (02:40:07):
Yeah. So what I've done is zoomed in on that activity and put times and arrows pointing to the specific bands. So you can see this band is at 3:26. This is 3:20 and 3:19 for both the green and the pink phone. 3:14 is this one up here. From the tower located over here, there's corresponding bands for both phones. And then there's this band at 3:13:57 and the time for this one is 3:14:35. So it shows note that these are very close in time, so you expect to find the phone near that area. And then you have the intersection here.
Mr. Lewis (02:40:56):
And then if we go to our next time window from 3:30 AM to about 4:00 AM, is this showing travel again?
Mr. Lewis (02:41:05):
Yeah. So we're looking at 3:30 where we picked up from the previous slide all the way to 3:59. And it shows the movement of the target cell phones, all three of them east along 207 towards the Crescent Beach area starting at approximately 3:30 and then progressing in the area south of the Spuds sign on the map between 3:36 and 3:42. You can see the bands start on this side of the tower to the west and then progress to the east side of the tower during the timeframe by 3:42. Then at 3:45, we're all near Interstate 95, both target cell phones using the same tower, same sector, similar distances within seconds. And then, we move past the crime camera or traffic camera location, and at 3:49 and one second, that's the timing advance calculation just to the east of the traffic camera. And then at 3:55 and 3:59, you see the pink phone is east of the traffic camera between that and the Crescent Beach sign on the map.
Mr. Lewis (02:42:16):
And is this consistent with Tina Marie Ellis' phone? There's no timing advance, but bouncing off that tower and using that sector?
Mr. Lewis (02:42:24):
Yes. It's consistent with those phones, the Lee-Ellis phone being the same general area as the Deller and Mullen phones at that time.
Mr. Lewis (02:42:35):
And then you included the... That's the photograph that matches up to the... Or the video from the camera at the road?
Mr. Lewis (02:42:42):
Yeah. So we're zooming into just that timeframe between about 3:45 and 3:59. That activity is the activity I pointed out near 95. And then the phone's moving east. This is 3:49 and 1 second right here. And this is a traffic camera that captured the suspect vehicle here at 3:48 and 23 seconds.
Mr. Lewis (02:43:10):
And then can you show... Just briefly tell us what's happening right here?
Mr. Lewis (02:43:15):
So now we're going in reverse. That shows the movement of the target cell phones back along a similar route, south and west. And then south back towards the vicinity of the Lee-Ellis residence arriving approximately between 4:40 and 4:45.
Mr. Lewis (02:43:42):
Then if we look from 5:00 AM to 6:00 AM basically, is that showing basically Mr. Mullen's phone? There's one instance, but Ms. Deller's phone, multiple instances as being at Ms. Ellis' house?
Mr. Lewis (02:43:56):
Yeah. So you've got timing advance on three bands near the Lee-Ellis residence for both target cell phones. There's only one for the green, Mullen phone. But it's 1.6 miles from the tower. That's the closest one right on top of the Lee-Ellis residence.
Mr. Lewis (02:44:19):
Then what are we looking at right here from 1:00 PM to 1:36 PM?
Mr. Lewis (02:44:25):
So this is the next day, September 10th, 1:00 PM. The first event is the event at 1:00 and 5 seconds at 240 degrees, and 1.5 miles from the base of the tower. And then the next event at 1:07 with timing advance is on the sector facing to the south and at 180 degrees. And there's timing advance between 0.73 to 0.83. So 0.73, 0.78 is the middle one that also shares timing advance events with the Mullen phone. And then the outer one is 0.83 at 1:12.
Mr. Lewis (02:45:07):
And are these timing advance records for Chad Mullen's phone and Caylen Deller's phone consistent with being back at the Deller residence or the Stormy Stables?
Mr. Lewis (02:45:16):
Yes. Again, it's consistent even though these are beyond the residence. The phone could be one or two bands closer than the band display because of what I described earlier. There's things that can slow down that signal as it goes to and from the tower. And you also have to account for things like the length of the coaxial cable between the antenna and the computer at the base of the cell phone tower that does the calculation, slows down that signal just ever so slightly. But yes, the answer is yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:45:50):
Now, if we look at... Let's move to September 12th. And this records we have only deal with Caylen Deller's phone and Tina Marie Ellis' phone or Lee-Ellis' phone. What are we looking at right here?
Mr. Lewis (02:46:07):
Yes, this is a visual representation of the cellular network activity for 4049 Deller and 5446 Lee-Ellis in red. There's one timing advance event during this timeframe for the Lee-Ellis phone at 1:42 and 25 seconds, 4.75 miles from the base of the tower, just to the south and kind of in this area, at least in between the two residences. And then from 1:30 to 1:41, there's timing advance activity bracketing the Deller residence on the sector shown. There's a phone call with the Lee-Ellis phone and you can see the Lee-Ellis phone also utilizes the tower near the San Mateo sign to the north of the Deller residence for a phone call with the Deller phone.
Mr. Lewis (02:47:00):
And now if we're looking at the time window from starting at 1:47 to 2:15 AM, what is that showing us?
Mr. Lewis (02:47:07):
So it shows the movement of the Lee-Ellis phone between 1:47 and 2:01 AM on the 12th, north and east towards the Hastings area. You see it utilizes the tower and sector north and east of East Cracker Swamp Road sign on the map. And then at 2:01 and 2:14, it's utilizing the sector facing the body recovery scene near the Hastings sign on the map. And you also see several timing advance events between 2:04 and 2:14 for the pink Deller phone at the distances shown near Hastings.
Mr. Lewis (02:47:45):
So around 2:04 AM, the Deller phone is coming in close contact or close to where the burial site is?
Mr. Lewis (02:47:54):
Yes, nearby.
Mr. Lewis (02:48:02):
Now, if we go fast-forward from 2:15 AM to 5:00 AM, what is this showing us now?
Mr. Lewis (02:48:09):
This shows us that there's one, two, three towers with timing advance calculated distances that all intersect in the same area as the dark blue body recovery scene flag. So if I were looking for this phone real time, I would look for the phone somewhere in this area of intersection displayed.
Mr. Lewis (02:48:31):
And there's 47 timing advance events in this time window. We only have probably what, 8 or 10 plotted there?
Mr. Lewis (02:48:39):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (02:48:39):
Okay. And all of those timing advances from basically 2:15 to almost 5:00 AM are putting Caylen Deller's phone basically at the burial site of where Mr. Mullen was buried?
Mr. Lewis (02:48:53):
Yes. They're all consistent with what is displayed.
Mr. Lewis (02:48:56):
Did you make a zoomed-in to show it a little bit more clearly?
Mr. Lewis (02:49:01):
I did.
Mr. Lewis (02:49:02):
Is this what we're looking at right here?
Mr. Lewis (02:49:04):
It is.
Mr. Lewis (02:49:05):
Is this zoom-in basically show that phone basically, or not basically, but very consistently being at the site of where Mr. Mullen was buried?
Mr. Lewis (02:49:16):
Yes, at or near.
Mr. Lewis (02:49:18):
When you have them crisscrossing, that gives you some good more accuracy? It's in that general area?
Mr. Lewis (02:49:24):
Yes, correct.
Mr. Lewis (02:49:35):
I can have you sit down, sir. Thank you. One moment.
(02:49:38)
May I just have a moment, Judge?
Judge (02:49:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (02:50:05):
Nothing further, Judge.
Judge (02:50:06):
And Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith (02:50:11):
I just want to make sure I'm understanding. You were able to get the advanced timing on the Mullen phone and the Deller phone?
Mr. Lewis (02:50:18):
Correct.
Mr. Smith (02:50:18):
But not on the Ellis phone?
Mr. Lewis (02:50:21):
So there is one timing advance event during the timeframe. AT&T started producing timing advance to law enforcement in June 2023, but the volume of timing advance they produce is much, much lower. And they only provide a small sample, if you will, of the timing advance that actually occurs during the time of this case. So there wasn't much available to plot.
Mr. Smith (02:50:54):
So a majority of the plots that you had for the Ellis phone were based on phone calls that were made?
Mr. Lewis (02:51:02):
Correct.
Mr. Smith (02:51:02):
And hitting off that tower?
Mr. Lewis (02:51:04):
Phone calls and data sessions, which is the same tower and sector, which is side of the tower.
Mr. Smith (02:51:09):
So like if somebody searched on their phone on the internet maybe?
Mr. Lewis (02:51:13):
Data session could be any use of the phone other than traditional phone calls or SMS simple messaging. So data sessions is the gateway or the phone to the internet. So it could be checking Facebook, looking something up on Google Maps. It could be searching something on the internet, like you said.
Mr. Smith (02:51:32):
Okay. So that last slide you showed on September 12th, there's no indication that Ms. Ellis' phone was there, right?
Mr. Lewis (02:51:42):
Can we look at the slide?
Mr. Smith (02:51:52):
Yes, this slide.
Mr. Lewis (02:51:53):
Can we zoom out to the one showing the overall timeframe, the one or two slides before that? So yeah, so there is nine events, four data sessions and five incoming calls where the Lee-Ellis phone 5446 utilized the red sector display facing due north. May I stand up?
Mr. Smith (02:52:19):
Sure.
Mr. Lewis (02:52:20):
So the tower and sector covers a pretty large area. The nearest AT&T tower to the north is located here. So that tower and sector covers a large area here that would include the body recovery site. But what we know from tower and sector usage is that the phone is somewhere in the usable coverage area of that tower and sector.
Mr. Smith (02:52:43):
So based on, I like to describe it as three pieces of pie instead of sectors.
Mr. Lewis (02:52:48):
Sure.
Mr. Smith (02:52:48):
That's typically the way I describe it. So what you're saying is that where her phone is hitting is within that sector that would cover the farm?
Mr. Lewis (02:52:57):
Yes. And it's one of the same three towers that the Deller phone's using.
Mr. Smith (02:53:02):
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Lewis (02:53:05):
Just a quick question. Sir, the location where Ms. Ellis' phone is bouncing off right here, this would not be from her being at her residence, correct?
Mr. Lewis (02:53:14):
No.
Mr. Lewis (02:53:15):
Okay. That would not be from her being in Putnam County. It would have to be somewhere in this sector, correct?
Mr. Lewis (02:53:22):
Yes. It's conceivable that, in all fairness, that it's conceivable there could be some usable coverage just on the other side of the river, but the primary area of coverage is going to be in this area.
Mr. Lewis (02:53:36):
And we know Ms. Ellis is, based on all the other maps, she lives down here?
Mr. Lewis (02:53:40):
To the south and west, yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (02:53:42):
Thank you. No further questions.
Judge (02:53:45):
Any follow up?
Mr. Smith (02:53:48):
No.
Judge (02:53:48):
Thank you.
Mr. Lewis (02:53:49):
Thank you, ma'am.
Mr. Lewis (02:53:57):
The State would call Laura Draga. [inaudible 02:54:10]
Judge (02:54:10):
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this [inaudible 02:54:25] will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Laura Draga (02:54:24):
I do.
Judge (02:54:24):
Thank you.
Mr. Lewis (02:54:24):
May we begin, Judge?
Judge (02:54:42):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (02:54:43):
Good morning, ma'am. How are you doing?
Laura Draga (02:54:44):
Good morning.
Mr. Lewis (02:54:45):
Can you please introduce yourself to the jury and spell your last name?
Laura Draga (02:54:48):
My name is Laura Draga. The last name is spelled D-R-A-G-A.
Mr. Lewis (02:54:53):
Where do you work, ma'am?
Laura Draga (02:54:55):
I work for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Crime Laboratory in Jacksonville.
Mr. Lewis (02:55:01):
What do you do for them?
Laura Draga (02:55:02):
I'm a senior crime laboratory...
Brian Smith (02:55:01):
What do you do for them?
Speaker 12 (02:55:02):
I'm a senior crime laboratory analyst in the firearms section.
Mr. Lewis (02:55:06):
Can you tell us just quickly your education and training to become a firearms examiner?
Speaker 12 (02:55:11):
I have a bachelor of science in chemistry and in biology. Specific to the area of firearms identification, I underwent an 18-month training program at FDLE, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, beginning in 2006 and ending in 2008. I also complete continuing education on an annual basis to include seminars with Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners and other webinars, training with the ATF, FBI, et cetera. Subsequent to the 18-month training program ending in 2008, I was certified to perform independent casework at FDLE in the area of firearms identification and tool mark identification.
Mr. Lewis (02:55:53):
Approximately how many exhibits or firearms or ammunition have you examined in your career so far, ma'am?
Speaker 12 (02:56:01):
Oh, gosh. Cartridge cases just in my casework alone, it's in excess of 15,000, maybe even 16,000 cartridge cases, many thousands of projectiles and somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,600 or 1,700 different firearms.
Mr. Lewis (02:56:21):
And have you testified in court before in the area of firearms examination and comparison?
Speaker 12 (02:56:27):
I have.
Mr. Lewis (02:56:28):
Approximately how many times, ma'am?
Speaker 12 (02:56:29):
177 times in Florida circuit courts.
Mr. Lewis (02:56:37):
Let's fast-forward to this case. Way back in 2024, I believe it was, let me just make sure, yeah, in 2024, did you receive a cartridge case to analyze and look at?
Speaker 12 (02:57:01):
Yes, I did.
Mr. Lewis (02:57:04):
Can you describe when you received that, ma'am?
Speaker 12 (02:57:11):
I don't recall when I actually received the envelope, but I opened the item on March 6th, 2025.
Mr. Lewis (02:57:33):
I'm showing you what's in evidence as 21 PP. Can you see that, ma'am?
Speaker 12 (02:57:40):
I can.
Mr. Lewis (02:57:40):
And that was the casing you received. Can you describe what brand of casing it was that you received? Well, first off, before you do that, tell us what that is. What are we looking at right there?
Speaker 12 (02:57:51):
So what we're looking at is we're looking at a fired .22 Long or .22 Long Rifle caliber cartridge case.
Mr. Lewis (02:58:03):
What is a cartridge case? What does that mean?
Speaker 12 (02:58:05):
So it's a little bit easier to describe what a cartridge case is when you describe what a cartridge is. So when people go to the store and they want to buy ammunition for their firearms, they might say, "Okay, I'm going to go buy bullets for my gun." But really what they're buying is they're buying cartridges. Cartridges are single units of ammunition that can be loaded into a firearm so that you can fire it. And there's four main components of the cartridge. It consists of the cartridge case, which is the container for all of the other items. It consists also of gunpowder, which is on the inside of the cartridge case. And then specifically with rimfire ammunition, you have a small amount of a priming compound which is spun out into the rim of that cartridge case, and then you have a projectile loaded into the mouth.
(02:58:50)
So the cartridge is all of those four components, one of which is the cartridge case. The priming compound obviously is not there. It's consumed during firing, but you might have some residue on the inside. The gunpowder is also consumed. It's what gives the power and the pressure to push the bullet out of the cartridge case down the barrel, out the barrel and towards target. And then the bullet or the projectile is obviously somewhere away from the firearm. But it's the part that's left after everything else is gone.
Mr. Lewis (02:59:22):
And is there two different ways how this can get ejected from a gun? Let's say for example, if you have a revolver, how would that get emptied out of the gun?
Speaker 12 (02:59:33):
If you have a revolver, it would be manually removed from the cylinder of the firearm. So the cylinder is the portion of a revolver where you load each of the cartridges. And there aren't any really automatically ejecting revolvers. You actually have to either open the cylinder and flip it out to the side, press the ejector rod, remove each of them with your fingers or dump it. Or if the revolvers have a different design, you might have to rotate the cylinder, push it out with your ejector rod, grab it with your fingers, pull it out, et cetera. But they're removed manually.
Mr. Lewis (03:00:08):
And a revolver is like the cowboy guns of the old days, like with the cylinder that spins around?
Speaker 12 (03:00:12):
Yeah. If you've ever heard anybody talk about a six-shooter, you're talking about a revolver.
Mr. Lewis (03:00:19):
The other way, if you have a semi-automatic or an automatic firearm, how would that casing be expelled from the gun?
Speaker 12 (03:00:27):
Generally speaking with .22 caliber firearms, we're talking about a blowback operation with either semi-automatic or fully automatic firearms. A blowback operation means that when you have the pressure which is building on the inside of that cartridge, because you have the gunpowder burning and gunpowder is a special type of compound that is both its own fuel and its own source of oxygen. So what that means is that you're producing a large amount of carbon dioxide in a very short period of time. Because you have forward pressure on the base of the bullet, which is going to push that out, you also have to consider that it's almost like blowing up a balloon that doesn't want to blow up, but there's rearward pressure on the back of the cartridge case and there's outward pressure, which is pushing the walls of the cartridge case against the walls of the chamber, which is the back part of the barrel in the case of a semi-automatic.
(03:01:22)
And that rearward pressure will actually push back on the cartridge case. The cartridge case pushes back on the breech face or the slide or the breech bolt of the firearm. And that rearward pressure will actually cause that part of the firearm to move to the rear. There's an extractor attached to the cartridge case. The extractor pulls the cartridge case out of the chamber. All of that begins to move to the rear together. And at some point you will strike either the ejector or it will move forward to the rear in such a way that if you don't need an ejector, it will be flung clear of the firearm. But in other words, you're using some of the power of the cartridge to push the bullet out and you're using some of the power of the cartridge to extract and eject, meaning pull out of the chamber and throw out of the firearm that cartridge case.
Mr. Lewis (03:02:12):
So just to simplify that a little bit, if I pull the trigger on my semi-automatic gun, it fires, the casing just shoots out the side itself?
Speaker 12 (03:02:20):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (03:02:20):
Okay. This specific casing that you looked at, what brand was it, ma'am?
Speaker 12 (03:02:27):
I believe it was Remington.
Mr. Lewis (03:02:30):
Now, were you able to research or see when these were manufactured?
Speaker 12 (03:02:36):
So based on a catalog that we have in our laboratory, which is the Rimfire Headstamp Guide, it was written by an ammunition expert by the name of George Kass. The information that we have for this particular headstamp, which we can't read it here, but it actually says the letter U and then high speed, that headstamp was not used past the 1950s according to the information that we have.
Mr. Lewis (03:03:09):
So it hasn't been manufactured or utilized in 60 or some odd years, give or take? 60, almost 65 years?
Speaker 12 (03:03:17):
Yeah, at least.
Mr. Lewis (03:03:18):
Okay. What was the condition of this casing when you found it? Not when you found it, but when it came to you.
Speaker 12 (03:03:25):
Thank you. So when I received the cartridge case, there was a small chip out of the mouth and it was very corroded. There was a lot of sand that was cemented onto it. There was a lot of sand on the inside of the case. And although I didn't realize it initially, when I started to clean it to attempt to remove some of that sand, I discovered that the cartridge case was very brittle because in my attempt to clean it, I actually fractured it. So the cartridge case is corroded and it's brittle.
Mr. Lewis (03:04:05):
And you've been doing this for a long time. Have you looked at cartridge cases previously that were in the ground or left down there for a while?
Speaker 12 (03:04:13):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (03:04:15):
Is this cartridge case consistent in your experience with being there for a long time, not just for four or five weeks, but for a long amount of time?
Speaker 12 (03:04:23):
So I would say, if I can just say that a different way.
Mr. Lewis (03:04:29):
Of course.
Speaker 12 (03:04:31):
There's only one cartridge case that I've ever gotten that was in worse condition than this. And that cartridge case, they had a record that it had been in the ground for 20 years. So this cartridge case is not consistent with the cartridge cases that I've received information that they've been in the ground for a few weeks or months. It's much more brittle than that, but the condition of the cartridge case can change depending on what the soil chemistry is like. So I couldn't say exactly how long this had been in the ground because of course, if there were very acidic conditions, then that could lead to this cartridge case getting very brittle like this. But to your point, I've only ever seen one cartridge case that is literally falling apart like this one was, and that cartridge case has been in the ground for decades.
Mr. Lewis (03:05:27):
Now, did you receive a second submission in 2026?
Speaker 12 (03:05:29):
I did.
Mr. Lewis (03:05:34):
When did you receive that second submission?
Speaker 12 (03:05:37):
The second submission was submitted to the laboratory on August 25th of this year, and I began work on that, opening the items on the 2nd of September of this year.
Mr. Lewis (03:05:51):
I'm going to approach and show you what is marked in evidence as State's 13. Can you take a moment to see if you recognize those?
Speaker 12 (03:06:05):
Yeah, sorry. I'm looking at the-
Mr. Lewis (03:06:06):
Yeah, I was going to bring it closer for you if you needed.
Speaker 12 (03:06:09):
Yes, I do recognize these items.
Mr. Lewis (03:06:11):
Okay. Are these the additional submissions you received?
Speaker 12 (03:06:13):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (03:06:14):
And what submission numbers were they for you or what number exhibits were they?
Speaker 12 (03:06:19):
So it's submission seven, items 39 through 41 as they were submitted to FDLE.
Mr. Lewis (03:06:26):
Do you mind standing up for a moment? I'm sorry. Do you mind explaining to the jury what you received and what these appear to be when you were looking at them?
Speaker 12 (03:06:35):
Okay. So if we can start here and then flip this over. This is a portion of a bullet. We can see that there's some exposed lead here. Although the label is somewhat in the way, you can see the jacket is intact at the base on this side, but there's a portion of the jacket missing below the ogive. The ogive is the forward nose portion of the bullet, but there's a little bit of jacket portion missing here, but it's a portion of a fired bullet. What we have here is we have a lead fragment. The lead fragment does have a portion of the intact base so that you can see that it was once part of a jacketed bullet. There's an impression from the jacket there on the base, but there's no jacket on it.
(03:07:24)
And then what we have at the top is we have a jacket fragment. There's no lead left on that piece. It's just the outer covering part of the bullet. It is from the base portion. You can see that at least it's similar in construction to this, that it would've been part of an open-base bullet.
Mr. Lewis (03:07:44):
And we've heard testimony from the medical examiner that there was two gunshot wounds. Would these three be consistent with either being related to two bullets or one bullet could have been?
Speaker 12 (03:07:59):
So I was not able to determine whether they were part of the same bullet. I was not able to determine whether any of this was fired from the same firearm. Obviously this center portion was part of the base of a bullet. They could have been part of the same bullet, but they could have also not been part of the same bullet.
Mr. Lewis (03:08:24):
So what I wanted to make sure the jury understands is that the medical examiner determined that there was two gunshot wounds. These all could have been from two bullets, one bullet, but you're not saying these are three separate bullets, correct?
Speaker 12 (03:08:38):
That is not what I'm saying at all. They could have been part of two bullets or they could have been in fact part of three based on my examination, but I haven't and I can't make any determination that it was either one bullet, two bullets, or three bullets.
Mr. Lewis (03:08:54):
Now let me ask you, were you able to, based on examining the projectile, one of the projectiles, be able to determine what caliber bullet it is?
Speaker 12 (03:09:04):
So this bullet fragment at the bottom, essentially what I did is I measured using the stage micrometer on my microscope, the diameter by measuring the circumference. I didn't actually measure the diameter because it's out of round. But I don't know for anybody that likes geometry. Nobody likes geometry. If you measure the circumference, you can determine the diameter by dividing by pi. So I basically measured in short segments all the way around at this forward portion. Based on that diameter, it's in .38 caliber class. .38 caliber class includes .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 SIG, nine millimeter Luger.
Mr. Lewis (03:09:55):
Slow down just a little bit. If you can just say that a little...
Speaker 12 (03:10:01):
Okay. So a .38 caliber class would include .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 SIG, nine millimeter Luger, .380 Auto, and others.
Mr. Lewis (03:10:13):
But nine millimeter is included in there?
Speaker 12 (03:10:13):
Nine millimeter is included, but beyond that, if we look at the overall shape of this nose, we can see that it's slightly pointed. It's rounded, but it's more pointed than rounded. And that overall shape would be consistent with bullets that are ordinarily loaded in nine millimeter Luger caliber cartridges.
Mr. Lewis (03:10:34):
Now, were you able also to see maybe called striation marks or marks on this bullet that would help you identify what kind of firearm it could have been from manufacturer-wise, not specific?
Speaker 12 (03:10:45):
Yes. There are discernible class characteristics of the rifling left on that bullet fragment.
Mr. Lewis (03:10:53):
And we can put this down. So can you explain to the jury how rifling is left on a projectile when it goes out of a gun?
Speaker 12 (03:11:01):
Yes. On the inside of the barrel of a firearm is what's called rifling. And rifling is a set of helical grooves that cause the bullet to start to spin while it's inside of the barrel. And that bullet, once it's spinning, will stay spinning as it leaves the barrel and then travels out of the barrel and towards target. And so most people understand a spinning bullet will travel straighter and truer to the target, much like a spinning football. Anybody who has ever thrown a football or watched a football being thrown, somebody who doesn't know how to throw it, it goes end over end. And it doesn't go there to the guy we're throwing it to. It goes somewhere over there. Bullets will do the same thing because they're traveling so fast, if you don't have the spin of that bullet, what will end up happening is that the bullet will wobble side to side and then you have a lot of air pressure pushing back on that bullet and it will cause it to veer off track.
(03:12:07)
So bullets spin. In order to make them spin, we have to have that rifling. Manufacturers decide how many lands and how many grooves they want to have on the inside of that barrel so that the bullet will spin. And not only do they decide how many lands and grooves they want to have, they decide what the measurements of those will be because they have to make a tool that will either remove material from the inside or that you can force material down onto so that you have those grooves on the inside barrel. And they just make the choice, not really randomly. A lot of it is because that's the way they've always done it, because they want to be different from the other guy. But there are land and groove engravings on that bullet fragment and you can count them and you can measure the widths of those land and groove engravings relative to each other.
Mr. Lewis (03:13:10):
And how many lands and grooves were on this one?
Speaker 12 (03:13:14):
So although there are no longer seven grooves, based on the calculated diameter and based on the widths of the lands and grooves that are still remaining, this bullet would have had seven grooves of the right twist.
Mr. Lewis (03:13:28):
And what manufacturer, based on your database that you looked up, were you able to say could be consistent with that?
Speaker 12 (03:13:35):
There's only one manufacturer in the database that we have access to that uses seven grooves with the right twist and a .38 caliber class, and that is SCCY Industries. For the record, SCCY can be spelled either S-K-Y-Y, like the vodka, or subsequent to lawsuit from said vodka maker, S-C-C-Y Industries. So S-K-Y- Y or S-C-C-Y.
Mr. Lewis (03:14:01):
And just to be clear, you said a .38 caliber class that includes a nine millimeter. It doesn't exclude that, right?
Speaker 12 (03:14:07):
Yes. And SCCY Industries, the particular firearms are the CPX-1 and the CPX-2. But that's the only one that we have in the database. That doesn't mean that it's the only one in the entire universe that uses seven right in the .38 caliber class, but it's the only one that's in the database.
Mr. Lewis (03:14:30):
And I'm going to show you-
Speaker 12 (03:14:30):
Can I sit?
Mr. Lewis (03:14:30):
Oh, sorry. Oh yes. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Let me show you... I think this is 15F, and I'll have a close-up in a second. And this is a Smith & Wesson. I guess it's the Model 6904, nine millimeter. Is this gun consistent with that seven lands and grooves?
Speaker 12 (03:15:10):
Can I ask you, is this the firearm that I saw?
Mr. Lewis (03:15:13):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 12 (03:15:13):
Okay.
Mr. Lewis (03:15:15):
This is the firearm that was recovered at Ms. Ellis's residence.
Speaker 12 (03:15:19):
So the firearm that I saw had five lands and grooves, not seven.
Mr. Lewis (03:15:28):
May I have just a moment, Judge? And this firearm would not be consistent with seven lands and grooves with a twist, whichever which way.
Speaker 12 (03:15:45):
Yeah. So I mean, if we can put it another way, five lands and grooves. I have five fingers on my hands. If there is an impression somewhere that has seven on it, then that means that that person had seven fingers. And if I have five fingers, I have to grow two more fingers to make that impression. So there's no way that that firearm could have left those land and grooves.
Mr. Lewis (03:16:05):
Thank you, ma'am. No further questions.
Brian Smith (03:16:08):
I have no questions.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:16:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 12 (03:16:13):
Your Honor, am I excused?
Judge Alicia Washington (03:16:15):
Yes. She's not subject to recall.
Mr. Lewis (03:16:16):
She's not. No. No, Your Honor.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:16:18):
Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
Speaker 12 (03:16:18):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Speaker 13 (03:16:20):
This way please. Thank you. Okay.
Mr. Lewis (03:16:31):
Judge, can we come sidebar for a moment?
Judge Alicia Washington (03:17:40):
Sure.
(03:17:40)
All right. So we are going to put you on your lunch break now. We'll have you return to the jury lounge, main courthouse again for 1:30. Please just go into the room and then they'll coordinate with you to release you for a restroom break prior to bringing you in. Same rules apply. Don't research anything. Don't allow anyone to talk in your presence about the case. Don't talk to each other about the case or anyone. Jury badges on seat, notebooks down. Any questions? I didn't ask this morning, but I wanted to make sure to ask now. Everyone remembered not to bring any electronic devices or anything into the courtroom, correct? All right, so that will remain. All right. All right.
Speaker 14 (03:18:27):
All rise. The jurors exit the courtroom.
Speaker 15 (03:18:36):
I heard 1:30. 1:30.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:18:37):
1:30. Jury lounge, main courthouse.
Brian Smith (03:19:34):
Yeah, Judge, at this time, the defense would move for a judgment of acquittal. Even in the light most favorable to the state, we would argue that they have not proved a prima facie case in regards to count one, first-degree murder. In regards to element number two, that the death was caused by the criminal act of Caylen Deller or that there was a premeditated killing of Chad Mullen. In regards to count two, we would move for judgment of acquittal on the charge of tampering or fabricating physical evidence. The state has failed to prove by prima facie case that Caylen Deller knew, well, both elements one and two, that she knew there was a criminal trial proceeding or investigation by a duly constructed, or sorry, constituted prosecuting authority. And also count two, that she altered, destroyed, or concealed, removed the body of Chad Mullen or any of the ropes, ratchets, net, cinder block, those types of items. We would argue they haven't proved those counts.
(03:20:38)
And then in regards to count three, or sorry, elements. In regards to count three, we would argue that they failed to prove the charge of failure to report the death of a person with the intent to conceal the death or alter the evidence or circumstances surrounding such death. And they failed to prove it by a prima facie case counts, sorry, elements one and two.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:21:03):
All right. Response?
Mr. Lewis (03:21:06):
Judge, in the light most favorable to the state, the evidence absolutely proves count number one, premeditated murder. There's been testimony from witnesses that her admission that she shot the victim in this case. There's been testimony about the motive and why she shot him. So the state has proven premeditation and proven that it was a criminal act of the defendant. As to count number two, tampering with physical evidence, I think it's clear from the evidence so far elicited at trial that Ms. Deller transported the body from where she killed Mr. Mullen. She utilized different apparatuses to move that body. The attempt of that moving it was to cover it up and move the body so that it would not be found. Obviously, it's a jury question whether or not a law enforcement agency would begin to be investigating. Obviously, whenever someone's murdered, generally law enforcement investigates, so that's a jury question to argue to the jury.
(03:21:59)
And then finally, in the light most favorable to the state, she obviously, for count three, moved the body. They buried the body in the attempts to avoid having to report it in violation of that statute, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:22:12):
So in making and moving for a judgment of acquittal, the court must view it as the defendant admits not only the facts taken in evidence adduced, but also admits every conclusion favorable to the adverse party that a jury might fairly and reasonably infer from the evidence, and all conflicts in evidence and all reasonable inferences must be resolved in favor of the state in the light most favorable to the state. So based on what has been produced and evidenced by the state so far, I will find that there is sufficient evidence to survive a judgment of acquittal and that motion will be denied. So let me have Ms. Deller placed under oath.
Brian Smith (03:22:58):
Judge, just real quick for the record, we would renew all prior motions and objections.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:23:03):
Understood.
Speaker 16 (03:23:05):
Can you raise your right hand for me? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this cause will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Caylen Deller (03:23:09):
I do.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:23:09):
All right. And ma'am, you are Caylen Deller?
Caylen Deller (03:23:09):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:23:15):
So sidebar, your attorney indicated that a decision has been made that you will take the stand on your own behalf. I just have to make sure that you understand in every criminal proceeding, you have a right to remain silent or you have a right to testify. Do you understand that?
Caylen Deller (03:23:34):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:23:35):
And after, based on advice from counsel and discussing your case and your strategy, have you made a decision that you want to testify on your own behalf?
Caylen Deller (03:23:46):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:23:47):
All right. And then state, is there any other inquiry that the state wants the court to make?
Mr. Lewis (03:23:50):
No, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:23:51):
All right. So what I anticipate then is we'll go ahead and do an initial charge conference with all of the information regarding her testifying in it. Jury come back at 1:30. We'll start.
(03:24:06)
Mr. Smith had reserved his opening at the beginning of the trial, so I'm assuming he'll make his opening now. Are there going to be any other witnesses other than Ms. Deller?
Brian Smith (03:24:18):
No.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:24:19):
All right. So depending on how long that testimony goes, I guess we'll have to make a call as to whether or not we're going to do a final charge conference and try to get the case to the jury today, or if we'd rather do her testimony, release the jury, do a final charge conference, get it together and start tomorrow. We'll see how long it takes on her testimony and her cross-examination. Okay? But be thinking about that as we go through the time.
Brian Smith (03:24:54):
Yeah. The only question I would have, Judge, is if we do push through today, which I had anticipated we would probably would, would be given a little bit of time after we do a charge conference to try and gather our thoughts before we present closing arguments?
Judge Alicia Washington (03:25:12):
All of those factors are going to depend on where we are at the conclusion of the evidence.
Brian Smith (03:25:18):
Okay.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:25:19):
Because I would prefer not to be releasing a jury to deliberate at five, six o'clock in the evening. I mean, that might be a bit much, but we'll see.
Brian Smith (03:25:34):
Yeah, I would agree. Typically, I don't like juries to go out too late because I don't want them to feel like, oh, it's getting close to 05:00. We need to make a decision real quick or something like that. So I understand.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:25:45):
All right. So initial charge conference. And Mr. Lewis, I think you indicated you sent me a new set based on my email.
Mr. Lewis (03:25:52):
I believe I did, Judge. Yes, ma'am. I could be incorrect, but I thought I sent it to everybody.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:26:00):
You in fact did, 8:57 AM. All right. And Mr. Smith, have you had an opportunity to look at those?
Brian Smith (03:26:09):
Not this latest one. I did look at the jury instructions last night.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:26:32):
All right. So page one of the proposed instruction is just the cover sheet. Any objections to it?
Brian Smith (03:26:40):
No objection.
Mr. Lewis (03:26:41):
None from the state, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:26:48):
First paragraph on page two is 3.1, introduction. Any objection to that?
Brian Smith (03:26:57):
No objection.
Mr. Lewis (03:26:58):
None from the state, Judge. And I just went back to a copy of the original, the one from the website and put it in there. I know you said there was some changes, so I just went and recopied the whole thing and just...
Judge Alicia Washington (03:27:06):
And then second paragraph is 3.2, which is statement of the charge. Any objection to that as drafted?
Mr. Lewis (03:27:21):
No, ma'am.
Brian Smith (03:27:24):
No objection.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:27:25):
Next instruction is 7.1. And I see you did add that one sentence that the new instruction has regards to just stating that she's accused of first-degree murder on count one. Let's just deal first with the first two paragraphs or first three, I guess, under that instruction. Any objection to it?
Brian Smith (03:27:53):
Are we on page three?
Judge Alicia Washington (03:27:53):
We are still on page two. We are on the 7.1 introduction to homicide and I'm just dealing with the first three paragraphs under that instruction.
Brian Smith (03:28:03):
No objection.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:28:07):
All right. And then the justifiable homicide instruction, which is contained in 7.1, any objection to that as drafted?
Brian Smith (03:28:17):
No objection.
Mr. Lewis (03:28:17):
No, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:28:19):
And again, let me open my other one. And that was just to account for some of the changes in the new instruction. Give me one second. Let me open that one up too. All right. And then the excusable homicide instruction, any objection to it? You saw where they took it and they just removed that definition of great bodily harm from it. So any objection to that?
Brian Smith (03:29:05):
No objection.
Mr. Lewis (03:29:05):
No, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:29:13):
All right. Count one, first-degree murder. Any objection to that instruction?
Brian Smith (03:29:21):
No objection.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:29:30):
3.4, lesser included crime instruction. Any objection to that instruction?
Brian Smith (03:29:47):
No objection.
Judge Alicia Washington (03:29:50):
And we have 7.4, the second-degree murder instruction. Any objection to that instruction as drafted?
Mr. Lewis (03:30:03):
No, ma'am-
Mr. Lewis (03:30:03):
No, ma'am. I did fix the ... I combined two and three that you'd asked for.
Mr. Willard (03:30:16):
No objection. And the two and three is under imminently dangerous, correct?
Mr. Lewis (03:30:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Willard (03:30:21):
Yeah.
Judge (03:30:24):
All right. The next instruction after that is the 3.3(d), which is the possession of firearm and discharge causing great bodily harm or death. Any objection to that instruction as drafted?
Mr. Lewis (03:30:44):
None from the state, Judge.
Mr. Willard (03:30:46):
No objection.
Judge (03:30:48):
So Lewis, I'm just going to assume you don't have an objection to any of them.
Mr. Lewis (03:30:52):
That's fine. Yeah.
Judge (03:30:52):
You drafted them.
Mr. Lewis (03:30:54):
Well, Mr. Willard did, so I might have an objection.
Judge (03:30:56):
Oh, okay. All right. And then is this the one where we ... No, it was the carrying where we had to change the ... Okay. So the next instruction after that is the carrying, displaying, using, threatening to use or attempting to use a firearm. And that is the standard 3.3(a). And we made the gender changes on paragraphs one and three. It's previously ...
Mr. Willard (03:31:28):
Yeah, I think it said before find him guilty, but now it says her.
Judge (03:31:33):
Okay.
Mr. Willard (03:31:33):
At least that's what I recall.
Mr. Lewis (03:31:36):
That's correct. I just looked for hims and changed most of them to hers.
Judge (03:31:42):
Okay.
(03:31:42)
All right. So any objection to that instruction?
Mr. Lewis (03:31:46):
No, ma'am.
Mr. Willard (03:31:47):
No objection.
Judge (03:31:49):
All right. Next we go to the manslaughter instruction 7.7. And any objection to that instruction as drafted?
Mr. Willard (03:32:06):
No objection.
Mr. Lewis (03:32:06):
Same.
Judge (03:32:11):
After the manslaughter, we have again the carrying, displaying, using, threatening, or attempting to use firearm. And I believe we made the changes with regards to gender. Yep. All right.
(03:32:27)
And then 7. 7. Oh, we did that one. All right. So now we're on 21.8, which is the tampering with or fabricating physical evidence. Any objection to that instruction?
Mr. Willard (03:32:42):
No objection.
Judge (03:32:43):
Now the failure to report, that was just one that was formulated based on the statute?
Mr. Lewis (03:32:49):
That's correct.
Judge (03:32:50):
All right. So defense, have you had a chance to look at that? It lines up with Florida statute 406.12 as charge 412.
Mr. Willard (03:33:04):
I looked it over this morning.
Judge (03:33:04):
Okay.
Mr. Willard (03:33:06):
Mr. Lewis asked me about it.
Judge (03:33:08):
Okay.
Mr. Willard (03:33:08):
So no objection.
Judge (03:33:14):
All right.
(03:33:14)
All right. From there we go to the standard 3.7, plea of not guilty, reasonable doubt and burden of proof. Any objection to that instruction?
Mr. Willard (03:33:27):
No objection.
Judge (03:33:28):
3.9, weighing the evidence up to factor five. Is there any objection?
Mr. Willard (03:33:39):
No objection.
Judge (03:33:39):
All right. And is either the state or defense requesting number six? Has the witness been offered or received any money, preferred treatment or other benefit in order to get the witness to testify?
Mr. Willard (03:33:50):
We would request it. I don't know if the state's going to object, but we would request it in regards to Mr. Waddell receiving money from the GoFundMe.
Judge (03:34:02):
All right. And state your response.
Mr. Lewis (03:34:04):
Judge, I'm not going to ... If they want it, put it in there.
Judge (03:34:07):
All right. So we'll include number six. Is either side requesting number seven, had any pressure or threat been used against the witness that affected the truth of the witness's testimony?
Mr. Willard (03:34:24):
I don't know. What did you have to do to get Mr. Waddell up here? It's a joke. No.
Mr. Lewis (03:34:24):
I don't think we need seven, Judge, or ...
Judge (03:34:27):
Okay. What about ... And I'm assuming both sides want ... Well, let me not assume. Number eight, did the witness at some other time make a statement that is inconsistent with the testimony he or she gave in court?
Mr. Willard (03:34:39):
I would want that in.
Judge (03:34:41):
All right. So we'll include eight. So essentially six would be the witness offered money. The new seven would be, did the witness at some other time make a statement that is inconsistent with the testimony he or she gave in court? Eight, has the witness been convicted of a crime, a felony or misdemeanor involving dishonesty or false statement? There was some testimony to that effect. So we'll agree number nine is number eight. Is either side requesting the final factor? Does the witness have a general reputation for dishonesty or truthfulness?
Mr. Lewis (03:35:23):
No, ma'am. I don't think there's evidence of that.
Judge (03:35:23):
All right. All right.
(03:35:24)
And so then the next three paragraphs with regards to the number of witnesses, law enforcement officers and expert witnesses, any objection to that standard language?
Mr. Willard (03:35:37):
No.
Judge (03:35:37):
And then Ms. Deller is now going to testify, so we would take out ... Let me go back here.
Mr. Lewis (03:35:47):
Well, we're keeping the defendant in this case. We become a witness, you should apply the same rules.
Judge (03:35:50):
Just take out that if only if defendant testified and make it just black print. So that would remain in. And any objection then to the next two paragraphs, which are part of the standard instruction?
Mr. Willard (03:36:15):
No.
Judge (03:36:15):
All right. And so we take out completely 3.9(a), which is defendant not testifying.
Mr. Willard (03:36:25):
Agreed.
Judge (03:36:27):
And then 3.9(b), defendant's statements. Is either the state or defense requesting that that instruction be given?
Mr. Lewis (03:36:36):
State's not. I don't think it's relevant. I don't think there's a police statement taken.
Mr. Willard (03:36:41):
We're not requesting.
Judge (03:36:42):
All right. So we remove 3.9(b).
(03:36:46)
3.10 is the standard rules for deliberation. Any objections? The only thing I had was to take out number seven since I don't allow jurors questions.
Mr. Lewis (03:37:00):
I think I took it out, Judge. Now there's a new number seven.
Judge (03:37:03):
What's the new number seven?
Mr. Lewis (03:37:06):
Your verdict should not be influenced by feelings of prejudice, bias, or sympathy.
Judge (03:37:09):
Oh, okay. I thought you meant you came up with something new.
Mr. Lewis (03:37:12):
I could if you'd like me to.
Judge (03:37:14):
I'm like, "What do you mean?"
Mr. Lewis (03:37:16):
No, ma'am.
Judge (03:37:18):
All right. Next is 3.11, the cautionary instruction tracks the standard language. Any objection to it?
Mr. Willard (03:37:26):
No. No objection.
Judge (03:37:27):
3.12, standard instruction for verdict. Any objection to it?
(03:37:42)
Now that, so in the new instruction, that is very confusing to me. The way the new instruction has it, the verdict must be unanimous. That is all of you must agree to the same verdict. Only one verdict may be returned as to each crime charge. And then it has the exception language for the lesser included offenses for count one. And the way it's drafted is a little confusing to me because I tell them that their verdict must be for the highest crime that they believe the state has proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So defense, are you requesting the new updated language that lists the lesser included offenses for count one?
Mr. Willard (03:38:46):
No. And the confusing part would be where it says accepted to count one where the defendant can be found guilty of more than one lesser included crime. Yeah. It almost implies that they can find my client guilty of second degree murder and manslaughter.
Judge (03:39:01):
Yeah. Yeah, it was very confusing that that changed. All right. So we'll leave it as it normally reads, which is the verdict must be unanimous, that is all of you must agree to the same verdict. Only one verdict may be returned as to each crime charge. The verdict must be in writing and for your convenience, the necessary verdict form has been prepared for you. It is as follows. And then I would read the form.
Mr. Willard (03:39:29):
Okay. So the paragraph that's above the highlighted one, we're just going to take out the whole highlighted one?
Judge (03:39:34):
Well, it actually stops ... After that first sentence, the verdict must be unanimous, that is all of you must agree to the same verdict. Just take out that whole rest of the paragraph and just type in only one verdict may be returned as to each crime charge.
Mr. Lewis (03:39:59):
Wait, so you want the ...
Mr. Willard (03:40:00):
Well, 'cause it appears that there's one and then there's the bolded one underneath, which I believe is the new one.
Mr. Lewis (03:40:07):
Right. The bolded one is the new one. So I just took the bolded one out Judge and just left the other one.
Judge (03:40:10):
All right.
Mr. Lewis (03:40:11):
Is that cool?
Judge (03:40:13):
That is kosher. It's more than kosher. Is kosher more than cool?
Speaker 17 (03:40:18):
Sure.
Judge (03:40:19):
Okay. I'll go ahead. All right.
(03:40:20)
So then we have single defendant, multiple counts or informations. And any objection to that instruction?
Mr. Lewis (03:40:33):
Not from the state.
Judge (03:40:38):
That's 3.12(a). All right. And then we have submitting the case to jury 3.13. Any objection to that standard instruction?
Mr. Willard (03:40:55):
No objection.
Judge (03:40:57):
All right. And then let's look at the verdict form. I believe Mr. Smith, I inquired briefly this morning, but in looking at the proposed verdict form, any objections as to count one?
Mr. Willard (03:41:19):
No objection.
Judge (03:41:21):
And then as to count two.
Mr. Willard (03:41:35):
No objection.
Judge (03:41:37):
And then finally as to count three.
Mr. Willard (03:41:43):
No objection.
Judge (03:41:46):
All right. So if you will get those changes emailed to us, then what we will do is we will go ahead and print the copies. What I do is I provide all of the jurors with a copy of the packet. If you think there might be some additional changes between now and that testimony, I can hold off on printing them if you want.
Mr. Willard (03:42:11):
Yeah, I would prefer you hold off.
Judge (03:42:12):
Okay. And then what we do is we give all of them a copy because we don't want them taking notes while I'm giving the instruction. We just want them to follow along and follow the instruction. When I finish with the second to last instruction is when I allow the state and the defense to do their closing arguments. And then after the closing arguments is when I give them the final instruction.
(03:42:37)
Timing, let's just see where we are. And I don't know. I've done this before, but if you guys don't want me to, I won't. What I've done is I've asked jurors before, "Hey, would you prefer to deliberate now?" I think in this case, there's so many different things to think about in terms of ... We're always risking when we release them that they're exposed to something because the news coverage keeps continuing on it.
(03:43:05)
And so on the one hand, that kind of leans toward if we could get them in a reasonable time, because we provide dinner for them. But I get the point of it's a lot of technical ... This is not a typical case. It's a lot of technology driven, and I don't know. I don't recall. I have to go back and look at it, the educational levels, like how easy it is for them to process that cell phone data and all those things. I don't know if they would do better with a fresh day. We can think about it over lunch and maybe talk about it a little bit.
Mr. Lewis (03:43:38):
The state's okay with you inquiring of the jury?
Judge (03:43:41):
Yeah.
Mr. Lewis (03:43:41):
Whatever their preference is, we'll make it work, Judge.
Judge (03:43:43):
Sometimes for their personal life, they're just like, "No, we're here. Everything's fresh in our mind and we want to do it." So we'll see where they are. All right?
(03:43:52)
Ms. Deller, do you have any questions?
Ms. Deller (03:43:53):
No, ma'am.
Judge (03:43:53):
Okay. All right. All right. So see you back at 1:30.
Speaker 18 (04:05:00):
(silence)
Speaker 19 (04:05:00):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:04:08):
All right. State and defense ready?
Speaker 20 (05:04:10):
Yes, ma'am. State's ready.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:04:12):
Ms. Deller, we just want to remind you that we use the leg brace so that the jury doesn't know your custody status. And so you have to make sure that you keep your leg bent and don't lock it out because otherwise it'll stiffen up on you. If that happens though, don't try to get up or anything. Just let us know. We can kind of just put them on a break and put them in the back if we need to adjust it. Okay, but they were saying that they... Some kind of way. Sam, explain it to me.
Sam (05:04:42):
Yes, ma'am. If she stand up, for example, with the announce, all rise with the jury enter and it locks. It makes that sound of locking and it will bring everyone attention like what is that snap kind of?
Judge Alicia Washington (05:04:55):
Okay.
Speaker 21 (05:04:57):
And so regarding that, Judge, I think potentially what might be best is after opening, have the jury removed to let her walk up there.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:05:05):
Okay.
Speaker 21 (05:05:05):
Because heaven forbid she's halfway up and it locks.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:05:06):
Okay.
Speaker 21 (05:05:06):
That's going to be very obvious. So that'd be my suggestion.
Sam (05:05:11):
If she had to stand up to keep her leg just slightly thin, it will be all right.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:05:16):
So state any objection that'll put the jury back out and-
Speaker 20 (05:05:19):
Oh no, that would be my recommendation, Judge. I've never seen it where a defendant doesn't have the opportunity to get on the stand first before the jury comes out.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:05:24):
Okay. All right. We'll do that. All right. Cool, [inaudible 05:05:29].
Speaker 22 (05:05:24):
Judge, are you going to have this in front of the jury?
Speaker 23 (05:07:12):
Also reminding anybody in the audience, make sure if you have a cell phone, electronic device that you turn it off. We had several go off this morning. If you prefer to not go off. All right. So please at this point in time check it, make sure you're off calls.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:07:17):
Same rules apply as well with regards to no taking of photographs, no taking of videos, no reaction to any of the testimony or argument presented. If you can't abide by that, just discreetly exit the courtroom. Mr. Smith, are you going to be using it in presentation mode, any of the exhibits?
Mr. Smith (05:09:03):
I may, yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:09:09):
Did you test your device or?
Mr. Smith (05:09:10):
I did, yeah.
Speaker 20 (05:09:19):
Mr. Smith, are these the videos?
Mr. Smith (05:09:21):
One. Just one, not-
Speaker 20 (05:09:23):
Okay. I just want to make sure it's the one that... Is she narrating on that one? We might have an objection if it's the one she's narrating on.
Mr. Smith (05:09:31):
Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 20 (05:09:32):
We may have to have you review it, Judge, first. I think the state will have some objections.
Mr. Smith (05:09:38):
And a photograph that's already in evidence.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:10:26):
It's all in one. Are we going to argue about the video before?
Speaker 20 (05:10:29):
Yeah, if you want to play it for the court so that we can-
Judge Alicia Washington (05:10:34):
Do we want to bring the jury in and put them in the jury room first?
Speaker 20 (05:10:37):
Sure, that'd be fine.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:10:38):
All right. So we're going to bring them in, but straight to the jury room and activate the light. Straight back into the room.
Speaker 23 (05:11:02):
All rise. The jury's in the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:11:08):
All right. We can have the jury go right directly back into the jury deliberation room. All right, the jury has been placed in the deliberation room and-
Video: Speaker 9 (05:11:51):
[inaudible 05:13:41]
Speaker 20 (05:13:49):
Judge, the state is just going to object on twofold. First, she's narrating through it, so it's hearsay. It's not really admissible. Secondly, what's occurring in the video, there's no threats, "I'm going to kill you. I'm going to beat you." He doesn't come out here with a knife or doesn't do anything like that. So they're just trying to use this to impune his character, and it's really character attack in this situation without any substantive threats or anything substantial there. And he actually drives off, as you can see, he doesn't even come out here, doesn't enter the property in any way. So the state doesn't feel like it's relevant in reference to, I assume it's going to be a self-defense allegation, but we don't believe it's relevant. And also the hearsay of her narration.
Speaker 24 (05:14:30):
Judge, it would go to my client's state of mind. Mr. Waddell testified yesterday that there was an incident that occurred in which my client requested or received a gun from Rebecca Davis. We didn't go into what happened, but he did say that there was an incident that occurred that caused her to want to get a gun. I believe based on her testimony, it showed that her state of mind and why she felt she needed to have a gun.
Speaker 20 (05:15:00):
Judge, I think she can testify to that. If she testified she felt like he was a threat-
State Attorney (05:15:00):
And Judge, I think she can testify to that if she testified she felt like he was a threat to her or based on the circumstances she felt threatened. But just to play that video just to try and...
Judge Alicia Washington (05:15:08):
When was that video recorded?
Mr Spence (05:15:13):
It was recorded... My understanding is it was recorded in August of 2024.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:15:15):
So a month or so prior to the alleged incident. All right. So I'll find that that is not relevant to the offices that are currently charged. I'll also sustain the state's objection with regards to the portion of her narrating as being hearsay. It's not relevant because it's not closer time to the question. Now I don't know if something's going to happen in the testimony that changes that, but so far from what I have, the evidence that I have, it's not relevant today's case.
Mr Spence (05:15:54):
And my client's report happened on September 1st of 2024, so approximately eight days prior.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:15:55):
All right, so now we ready? You want me to start with opening when they come in?
Mr Spence (05:16:17):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:16:18):
Was there a second? You said two things.
State Attorney (05:16:20):
Just the photographs concerning evidence they said, that's not a problem, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:16:22):
Okay. All right, we're ready? Ready?
State Attorney (05:16:22):
Yes ma'am.
Bailiff (05:16:35):
All rise, the jurors enter the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:17:14):
All right, and the jury has returned. Everyone can be seated. Let's give the jury a minute to get their badges on, get their notepads out and just look up at me when you're ready. And everyone ready? And everyone left their electronic devices and everything in their vehicles? Nobody ate so much that they're going to fall asleep. You didn't go to the filling station, did you? That place is not good for you. All right, we'll go ahead and proceed. And Mr. Spence.
Mr Spence (05:18:12):
A life can change in a matter of seconds. One decision, one reaction, one moment that cannot be taken back, but sometimes to understand that moment, you have to understand everything that came before it. And that is what this case is really about. Not just what happened when Caylen pulled the trigger, but why she believed she had to. Caylen Deller did not wake up that day planning to kill Chad Mullen. She did not lure him to stormy stables. She was not looking for a confrontation. She offered to loan her truck to Chad because his truck had broken down.
(05:19:03)
Caylen told Chad he could borrow her truck, so she took him back to the stable where the truck was located. She picked him up and took him to the stable. Her truck had a broken headlight and Chad had agreed to fix the headlight since he was going to use the truck. After fixing the light, Caylen asked him if he had inappropriately touched her daughter. Seems like a weird thing to ask, but her daughter had been acting weird. After asking, she found herself face to face with a man she had seen angry before. Angry, but never to this level.
(05:19:45)
Chad grabbed her by the throat and pushed her against the driver's side door of the truck. She could not breathe. She could not get him off of her. While she was trying to get him off, she saw the gun underneath the driver's seat of the truck and grabbed it. When she grabbed it, he backed up and she yelled, "Back up, back up." He did until he reached to the rail of the barn and grabbed a hammer and came at her. In fear for her life, she fired two shots. Chad goes down. She jumps in the truck and goes over to Tina's house. Once she arrives, she tells Tina something happened at the barn and they both go back to the barn. Now Caylen was expecting Chad to be gone. She didn't know if she hit him. She thought maybe he had gotten up and walked away after she left, but he hadn't gone. He hadn't walked away. He was laying on the ground. Caylen checked him to see if he was still breathing. He was not.
(05:21:06)
She told Tina, "We need to call 911." Tina said, "No, they're not going to believe you." And then Tina convinced her to put him in the pond, which she did, the pond at the stable. On September 11th, Caylen was at the stable and noticed that the body had floated back up. So she calls Tina, asks her what to do. Tina's response? Tina's solution? "Wait till after dark. We'll take him out to Burns Farm." In the early morning hours of September 12th, Caylen gets the body out of the pond, puts it in her horse trailer and follows Tina over to Burns Farm.
(05:21:55)
Once they get to Burns Farm, a place that Tina's very familiar with, she gets the skid steer, digs a shallow grave, puts Chad in there and covers him with a mound of dirt. Ladies and gentlemen, we are not going to stand here and tell you that everything that Caylen did after defending herself was right. It wasn't. She was frightened. She was overwhelmed. She was consumed with what happened. She had just shot a man that she loved out of fear for her life. Unfortunately, Caylen did not do what she should have done, call 911. She listened to a friend and made the situation worse. This trial is not about whether Caylen Deller made every right decision after the shooting. The question is whether Caylen reasonably-
State Attorney (05:22:57):
I'm going to object as to argument. This is just what the facts will show.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:22:58):
Sustained.
Mr Spence (05:22:59):
The question is whether Caylen reasonably believed she had to shoot Chad.
State Attorney (05:23:06):
I'm going to object again.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:23:07):
Sustained.
Mr Spence (05:23:13):
Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to ask you to hold the state to their burden of proving each and every element in this case. And after all the evidence is in, we're going to come back and ask you for the only just verdict in this case. And that is for a verdict of not guilty in regards to first degree murder. Thank you.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:23:34):
All right. So we're going to need you to briefly go out again while we take care of some matters outside of your presence.
Bailiff (05:23:41):
All rise and the jurors exit the room.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:23:51):
It's just to keep you awake. All right. And now the jury has exited and we'll go ahead and have Ms. Deller brought to the witness stand.
(05:24:20)
Oh, you must have a seat. I'm just trying to see. Can you reach out to me? All right. And so when they are brought back in and seated, we'll have Ms. Deller sworn. Ms. Deller, you can remain seated while you're being sworn. Just raise your right hand to be sworn and then [inaudible 05:25:28]. Everyone ready?
Bailiff (05:25:30):
All rise. The jurors are in the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:25:33):
If you're comfortable saying you can. All right. Everyone can be seated. And Ms. Deller, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this court will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Caylen Deller (05:26:15):
Yes.
Mr Spence (05:26:22):
Sorry. Please introduce yourself to the jury.
Caylen Deller (05:26:25):
Caylen Deller.
Mr Spence (05:26:26):
How old are you?
Caylen Deller (05:26:27):
32.
Mr Spence (05:26:30):
What kind of work do you do?
Caylen Deller (05:26:32):
A riding lesson instructor.
Mr Spence (05:26:35):
How long have you been doing that?
Caylen Deller (05:26:36):
On and off for 18 years.
Mr Spence (05:26:39):
Where did you live in September of 2024?
Caylen Deller (05:26:41):
On Smith Lane in San Mateo.
Mr Spence (05:26:46):
I'm going to ask you about a couple of people that were involved in this case. Do you know Ken Waddell?
Caylen Deller (05:26:51):
Yes, I do.
Mr Spence (05:26:52):
How long have you known Ken?
Caylen Deller (05:26:54):
About seven years.
Mr Spence (05:26:56):
How did you meet Ken?
Caylen Deller (05:26:58):
My boyfriend and I at the time was renting a room from him.
Mr Spence (05:27:01):
And where was that?
Caylen Deller (05:27:02):
River Road in East Palatka.
Mr Spence (05:27:05):
What kind of relationship did you have with Ken at that time?
Caylen Deller (05:27:08):
Landlord tenant.
Mr Spence (05:27:12):
How often did you see Ken at that time when you were renting the room?
Caylen Deller (05:27:16):
Pretty much daily.
Mr Spence (05:27:19):
Did you all live under the same roof?
Caylen Deller (05:27:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:27:25):
How long did you have that living arrangement?
Caylen Deller (05:27:27):
A few months.
Mr Spence (05:27:29):
What changed?
Caylen Deller (05:27:31):
My boyfriend and I broke up and Ken was going to move and offered that I move with him and continue to rent a room.
State Attorney (05:27:36):
I'm having a hard time hearing her.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:27:37):
Can you get a little closer?
Caylen Deller (05:27:41):
Yes, ma'am.
Mr Spence (05:27:41):
Did you have Ostara at that time?
Caylen Deller (05:27:46):
No, I was pregnant with her.
Mr Spence (05:27:50):
Did your relationship with Ken change after moving?
Caylen Deller (05:27:54):
Yes. We became closer and started to date.
Mr Spence (05:27:58):
How long were you in a relationship with Ken?
Caylen Deller (05:28:00):
About two years.
Mr Spence (05:28:02):
Why did it end?
Caylen Deller (05:28:03):
Disagreements about how we should run our business.
Mr Spence (05:28:06):
And what business was that?
Caylen Deller (05:28:08):
A riding lesson, horse training business.
Mr Spence (05:28:13):
How was your relationship with Ken after you broke up?
Caylen Deller (05:28:16):
Strained. We didn't talk a whole lot while he lived in Bradenton, but then he moved back up towards Elkton and had a job with housing and offered me the same opportunity.
Mr Spence (05:28:27):
Did you move in with him?
Caylen Deller (05:28:28):
I did.
Mr Spence (05:28:28):
Did you get back in a relationship with him?
Caylen Deller (05:28:29):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:28:33):
Do you know Tina Marie Lee Ellis?
Caylen Deller (05:28:35):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:28:36):
And how do you know her?
Caylen Deller (05:28:37):
Through giving her niece riding lessons.
Mr Spence (05:28:41):
How long have you known Tina?
Caylen Deller (05:28:43):
About three years.
Mr Spence (05:28:47):
What kind of relationship did you have with Tina?
Caylen Deller (05:28:49):
At first, she just came by the barn, but eventually we became close and we were friends and she would watch Ostara for me sometimes.
Mr Spence (05:28:57):
Now, do you know Michelle Roberts?
Caylen Deller (05:28:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:29:00):
And how did you know Michelle?
Caylen Deller (05:29:01):
Through giving her granddaughter riding lessons.
Mr Spence (05:29:03):
Did she have a nickname?
Caylen Deller (05:29:05):
It was Mickey.
Mr Spence (05:29:08):
How long did you know Mickey?
Caylen Deller (05:29:10):
About three years.
Mr Spence (05:29:16):
Did you call Mickey on September 9th?
Caylen Deller (05:29:18):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:29:19):
About what time did you call her?
Caylen Deller (05:29:21):
Around noon.
Mr Spence (05:29:22):
Why did you call her?
Caylen Deller (05:29:24):
Because I had a horse that was choking and I was trying to take care of feeding horses, take care of him and watch Ostara at the same time, and I needed help.
Mr Spence (05:29:32):
Had that ever happened before?
Caylen Deller (05:29:34):
Yes, but when it happened before, either Kaitlin or Chad was there.
Mr Spence (05:29:40):
And Mickey said you were upset when you called. Why were you upset?
Caylen Deller (05:29:44):
Because my horse was choking and I loved him. I didn't want something to happen to him.
Mr Spence (05:29:50):
Why didn't you ask Ken to come and get her?
Caylen Deller (05:29:52):
He was in Illinois.
Mr Spence (05:29:54):
Was he living there?
Caylen Deller (05:29:55):
As far as I knew, yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:29:58):
Why didn't you ask Chad?
Caylen Deller (05:29:59):
His truck had broke down.
Mr Spence (05:30:02):
What about your assistant?
Caylen Deller (05:30:03):
I didn't have one at the time.
Mr Spence (05:30:08):
Did Mickey come to get Ostara?
Caylen Deller (05:30:10):
No, sir. She was on a cruise out of the country and I couldn't hardly hear her on the phone.
Mr Spence (05:30:17):
What did you do about the horse?
Caylen Deller (05:30:19):
I was tending to him and trying... I put off feeding and was watching Ostara as best I could, but then Tina showed up at the bar and I guess Mickey called her.
Mr Spence (05:30:26):
What did Tina do once she showed up?
Caylen Deller (05:30:31):
Took Ostara to her house to watch her.
Mr Spence (05:30:34):
Was that the only time that you called Michelle that day?
Caylen Deller (05:30:38):
No, I'd called her later that day too.
Mr Spence (05:30:41):
Why did you call her later that evening?
Caylen Deller (05:30:43):
Because I couldn't find Tina's house.
Mr Spence (05:30:54):
Did you know Rebecca Davis?
Caylen Deller (05:30:56):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:30:57):
How did you know Rebecca?
Caylen Deller (05:31:00):
I met her... I was riding a horse to a Dollar General parking lot. She asked if her girls could pet my horse, and then I eventually began giving them lessons.
Mr Spence (05:31:08):
How long have you known Rebecca?
Caylen Deller (05:31:11):
About six years.
Mr Spence (05:31:13):
What kind of relationship did you have with Rebecca?
Caylen Deller (05:31:15):
We were friends.
Mr Spence (05:31:17):
Did you allow her to watch Ostara?
Caylen Deller (05:31:19):
She's watched her before.
Mr Spence (05:31:23):
Did you know Chad Mullen?
Caylen Deller (05:31:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:31:25):
When did you meet Chad?
Caylen Deller (05:31:27):
July 2023.
Mr Spence (05:31:30):
How long did you know him?
Caylen Deller (05:31:31):
About a year.
Mr Spence (05:31:35):
How did you meet him?
Caylen Deller (05:31:37):
Through a friend and we exchanged phone numbers.
Mr Spence (05:31:42):
What kind of relationship did you have with Chad?
Caylen Deller (05:31:45):
Good. We were good friends at first, and then we began dating.
Mr Spence (05:31:48):
When did you begin dating?
Caylen Deller (05:31:50):
November 2023.
Mr Spence (05:31:54):
At any point, did you live together?
Caylen Deller (05:31:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:31:57):
When did you live together?
Caylen Deller (05:31:58):
I moved in about that time in November.
Mr Spence (05:32:02):
Moved into the place on Bardin?
Caylen Deller (05:32:04):
Yes, sir. 128 Keystone.
Mr Spence (05:32:07):
How was your relationship at that time?
Caylen Deller (05:32:11):
At first, it was still good, and then later on we started to have problems.
Mr Spence (05:32:16):
How long were you dating?
Caylen Deller (05:32:18):
The first time we broke up was in February 2024, but I didn't really move out.
Mr Spence (05:32:23):
What do you mean you didn't really move out?
Caylen Deller (05:32:25):
I packed my stuff and took it to the barn, but he offered that I stay in the house on the property.
Mr Spence (05:32:31):
So was there a house on the property where he had his fifth wheel or RV?
Caylen Deller (05:32:36):
Yes, sir. It was next to it.
Mr Spence (05:32:38):
Okay. And you stayed in the house?
Caylen Deller (05:32:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:32:42):
He wasn't living in the house?
Caylen Deller (05:32:44):
No, sir. He was trying to renovate the house, but he lived in the RV.
Mr Spence (05:32:49):
Did you eventually move back into the RV?
Caylen Deller (05:32:51):
I did.
Mr Spence (05:32:55):
How long did you stay in the RV this time?
Caylen Deller (05:32:57):
Until April when I moved out and got an apartment.
Mr Spence (05:33:01):
What happened this time? Why did you move out?
Caylen Deller (05:33:03):
We were having disagreements about him talking to his ex-girlfriend, April.
Mr Spence (05:33:15):
Sounds like you guys had an on again, off again relationship.
Caylen Deller (05:33:19):
Yes, sir, we did.
Mr Spence (05:33:20):
Why is that?
Caylen Deller (05:33:22):
Because he kept talking to April even when I'd ask him not to, and he said that I worked too much and that would cause disagreements.
Mr Spence (05:33:30):
Why didn't you just break up and go your separate ways?
Caylen Deller (05:33:32):
We needed to, but there was still an attachment there.
Mr Spence (05:33:38):
After you moved out, did you ever move back into the RV with him?
Caylen Deller (05:33:43):
No, sir. I stayed there a lot, but I never fully moved back in.
Mr Spence (05:33:46):
Did you remain broken up?
Caylen Deller (05:33:48):
No, sir. We were on again, off again.
Mr Spence (05:33:53):
You said there was still an attachment. What do you mean by that?
Caylen Deller (05:33:57):
We probably needed to go our separate ways, but we still tried to make it work.
Mr Spence (05:34:03):
How did your relationship change after you broke up?
Caylen Deller (05:34:06):
He became verbally abusive and violent.
Mr Spence (05:34:09):
What do you mean by verbally abusive?
Caylen Deller (05:34:11):
Cussing at me, calling me names, screaming, threatening me.
Mr Spence (05:34:15):
What do you mean by violent?
Caylen Deller (05:34:17):
Pushing me, spitting in my face, threatening me and stopping by my property.
Mr Spence (05:34:22):
Which property?
Caylen Deller (05:34:23):
Stormy Stables.
Mr Spence (05:34:26):
So when you moved out, where did you move after you left the RV?
Caylen Deller (05:34:30):
Smith Lane in San Mateo.
Mr Spence (05:34:36):
Did he find out where you were living?
Caylen Deller (05:34:38):
Yes.
Mr Spence (05:34:40):
How did he find out where you were living?
Caylen Deller (05:34:41):
He picked me up on a boat one day.
Mr Spence (05:34:45):
Was your place on the river?
Caylen Deller (05:34:46):
Yes, sir. It was.
Mr Spence (05:34:48):
Was that on Duns Creek?
Caylen Deller (05:34:49):
Yes.
Mr Spence (05:34:50):
Is that the one that Michelle rented to you?
Caylen Deller (05:34:53):
It was.
Mr Spence (05:34:58):
Did Chad ever come over to your house?
Caylen Deller (05:35:00):
Yes, sir. I had invited him over before.
(05:35:13)
There was a time where he came over at 4:30.
State Attorney (05:35:13):
I'm going to object. This is nonresponsive.
Mr Spence (05:35:24):
Would Chad still call you after you had broken up?
Caylen Deller (05:35:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:35:29):
How often would he call you?
Caylen Deller (05:35:31):
Almost every day.
Mr Spence (05:35:33):
Would you call him?
Caylen Deller (05:35:34):
Sometimes. A lot of times I would ask him to quit blowing up my phone.
Mr Spence (05:35:39):
When you asked him to stop, what would he do?
Caylen Deller (05:35:42):
Scream at me, cuss at me.
Mr Spence (05:35:46):
How would you deal with him calling and texting you all the time?
Caylen Deller (05:35:49):
I would block his number.
Mr Spence (05:35:51):
Would you keep the number blocked?
Caylen Deller (05:35:54):
No, sir. I often unblocked it.
Mr Spence (05:35:57):
Why?
Caylen Deller (05:35:58):
Because after he calmed down, I wanted to be able to talk to him again.
Mr Spence (05:36:11):
Would he block your number?
Caylen Deller (05:36:13):
Not that I know of. Every time I called, it would go through.
Mr Spence (05:36:18):
Did you ever find out if he got a new number?
Caylen Deller (05:36:21):
I figured out that he had.
Mr Spence (05:36:23):
How did you figure that out?
Caylen Deller (05:36:25):
The consistency in which he was using this new number versus the other ones being sporadic.
Mr Spence (05:36:31):
Did he ever tell you, "This is my new number?"
Caylen Deller (05:36:33):
Not directly, no, sir.
Mr Spence (05:36:35):
Did you ever block that new number?
Caylen Deller (05:36:37):
I may have and unblocked it.
Mr Spence (05:36:44):
So it was not uncommon for you to block his number and then unblock it?
Caylen Deller (05:36:47):
Not at all.
Mr Spence (05:36:50):
Why would you block and unblock his number?
Caylen Deller (05:36:54):
Because sometimes it would be too much for him threatening me and calling me names, but then after he would calm down, I would unblock him and we could resume talking.
Mr Spence (05:37:02):
All right. So I want to talk to you about September 9th. Were you and Chad broken up at that time?
Caylen Deller (05:37:08):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:37:11):
Did you have his number blocked?
Caylen Deller (05:37:12):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:37:14):
Had you been talking?
Caylen Deller (05:37:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:37:19):
Did you communicate with him at all that day?
Caylen Deller (05:37:21):
I believe on and off since noon.
Mr Spence (05:37:25):
Do you remember if you reached out to him or did he reach out to you?
Caylen Deller (05:37:28):
I don't remember who reached out to who first.
Mr Spence (05:37:34):
This communication on the 9th, was it antagonistic? Were you not getting along?
Caylen Deller (05:37:40):
No, we were getting along. He was trying to borrow my truck. Okay.
Mr Spence (05:37:44):
Did he tell you why?
Caylen Deller (05:37:45):
His had broke down.
Mr Spence (05:37:52):
Was there a plan for you to come and get him?
Caylen Deller (05:37:54):
Yes, sir. I planned to go pick him up and let him borrow my truck. Originally, we were going to ride Fuller's, but it got late in the day, so we weren't going to do that.
Mr Spence (05:38:12):
What time did you eventually meet up?
Caylen Deller (05:38:15):
Around 8:30 PM.
Mr Spence (05:38:18):
Did you pick him up at his house?
Caylen Deller (05:38:20):
Yes, sir. I did.
Mr Spence (05:38:22):
Was Ostara with you?
Caylen Deller (05:38:23):
No, she was still at Tina's.
Mr Spence (05:38:27):
Where did you go?
Caylen Deller (05:38:28):
To Stormy Stables.
Mr Spence (05:38:31):
Why didn't you just go back to your place or stay at his?
Caylen Deller (05:38:33):
Because my truck was at my stables.
Mr Spence (05:38:44):
Was there anything wrong with your truck?
Caylen Deller (05:38:46):
Yes, sir. The headlight was messed up and he was supposed to change it for me.
Mr Spence (05:38:50):
Did he end up changing the headlight?
Caylen Deller (05:38:52):
He did.
Mr Spence (05:39:05):
What happened after he finished changing the headlight?
Caylen Deller (05:39:10):
He came around to the cab of truck to see if the headlights were working, and that's when I told him I needed to ask him a question.
Mr Spence (05:39:16):
What did you want to ask him?
Caylen Deller (05:39:18):
Since Ostara had been exhibiting some strange behavior, I asked him if he had messed with her.
Mr Spence (05:39:24):
What do you mean by messed with her?
Caylen Deller (05:39:26):
Inappropriately touched her.
Mr Spence (05:39:28):
Did he answer you?
Caylen Deller (05:39:29):
No, sir. He just became very angry.
Mr Spence (05:39:33):
And then what happened?
Caylen Deller (05:39:35):
He had me pinned up against the truck, screaming in my face.
Mr Spence (05:39:41):
What did you do?
Caylen Deller (05:39:42):
I tried to push him away and get past him, but when I did that, he grabbed me by my throat and was choking me.
Mr Spence (05:39:49):
Now, I want to show you a picture that's been entered into evidence. It would be State's 16C. Does this picture look familiar?
Caylen Deller (05:40:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:40:29):
Judge, may I approach the witness?
Judge Alicia Washington (05:40:31):
Yes.
Mr Spence (05:40:33):
Is this a photograph of Stormy Stables?
Caylen Deller (05:40:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:40:37):
Okay. And is that the truck you were talking about there on the right side?
Caylen Deller (05:40:42):
It is, but it wasn't parked there.
Mr Spence (05:40:44):
Where was it parked on September 9th?
Caylen Deller (05:40:46):
Because it was dark. We had pulled it up to this barn on the left so he could use the light from the front of the barn to see the headlight.
Mr Spence (05:40:53):
So you had pulled up over here?
Caylen Deller (05:40:56):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:41:13):
So you had mentioned that he had pushed you against the seat or the door?
Caylen Deller (05:41:18):
The seat. The door was open.
Mr Spence (05:41:21):
Okay. How was the truck pulled into there?
Caylen Deller (05:41:25):
Straight ahead where the barn was on its left.
Mr Spence (05:41:27):
Okay. So it was pulled in, so you would see the back of the truck right here?
Caylen Deller (05:41:33):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:41:34):
Okay. And you're saying the driver's side door was open?
Caylen Deller (05:41:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:41:40):
And so he had pushed you in between the driver's side door, which was open and the seat?
Caylen Deller (05:41:46):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:41:47):
Okay. Were you able to get him off of you?
Caylen Deller (05:41:50):
No, sir. I wasn't.
Mr Spence (05:41:54):
Were you able to breathe?
Caylen Deller (05:41:55):
No, sir. Not while his hands was around my throat.
Mr Spence (05:41:58):
So what did you do?
Caylen Deller (05:42:00):
That's when I saw the gun and I grabbed it and pointed it at him and he backed up.
Mr Spence (05:42:06):
Did he say anything?
Caylen Deller (05:42:08):
He had reached behind him and grabbed a hammer off the rail of the barn and had it raised up at me talking about, "Bitch, you're not going to do nothing."
Mr Spence (05:42:16):
So looking at this picture again, you said the truck was along here?
Caylen Deller (05:42:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:42:22):
And where was the rail?
Caylen Deller (05:42:24):
Where that yellow sign is, in that blue barrel.
Mr Spence (05:42:27):
So right here?
Caylen Deller (05:42:28):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:42:30):
So you're saying he backed up to there and then he grabbed a hammer. And what did he do with that hammer?
Caylen Deller (05:42:35):
He was swinging it, coming towards me.
Mr Spence (05:42:38):
What did you do?
Caylen Deller (05:42:40):
I pulled the trigger of the gun, shot him twice. I pulled the trigger. The gun went off twice.
Mr Spence (05:42:47):
What did he do?
Caylen Deller (05:42:48):
He fell to the ground.
Mr Spence (05:42:49):
What did you do next?
Caylen Deller (05:42:51):
I jumped in my truck and ran to Tina's.
Mr Spence (05:42:58):
Why did you go to Tina's?
Caylen Deller (05:42:59):
Because it's where Ostara was.
Mr Spence (05:43:05):
Once you got to Tina's, did you tell her anything?
Caylen Deller (05:43:08):
I was just hysterical and told her that something happened at the barn and I needed her.
Mr Spence (05:43:19):
What did you guys decide to do next?
Caylen Deller (05:43:23):
We went to the barn, but part of me thought he would be gone when I got back.
Mr Spence (05:43:27):
Was he?
Caylen Deller (05:43:28):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:43:29):
Why did you think he'd be gone?
Caylen Deller (05:43:31):
I didn't know that I had shot him. I just knew he had stopped coming towards me and I was able to get away.
Mr Spence (05:43:37):
Okay. Why did you shoot him?
Caylen Deller (05:43:38):
Because he was choking me and he came at me with a hammer.
Mr Spence (05:43:43):
Were you afraid?
Caylen Deller (05:43:44):
Yes, sir. Extremely afraid.
Mr Spence (05:43:48):
Why didn't you just run?
Caylen Deller (05:43:50):
Because I couldn't get past him the way he had me pinned against the truck, and while his hand was on my throat, I couldn't get away from him.
Mr Spence (05:44:03):
So once you get back to the farm and you see that Chad hasn't left, what do you do?
Caylen Deller (05:44:08):
Check to see if he's breathing.
Mr Spence (05:44:10):
Was he?
Caylen Deller (05:44:11):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:44:14):
What did you do then?
Caylen Deller (05:44:15):
I told Tina we need to call 911.
Mr Spence (05:44:17):
Did you?
Caylen Deller (05:44:19):
No, sir. She convinced me not to saying-
State Attorney (05:44:21):
I'm going to object, Judge. This is all hearsay.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:44:24):
Sustained.
Mr Spence (05:44:30):
Why didn't you call... What happened to the gun?
Caylen Deller (05:44:39):
Tina took it.
Mr Spence (05:44:41):
Were there any bullet casings?
Caylen Deller (05:44:43):
Yes, but she took those too.
Mr Spence (05:44:48):
What decision was made to do with the body?
Caylen Deller (05:44:52):
She told me the best thing to do would be-
State Attorney (05:44:53):
I'm going to object, Judge. Hearsay once again.
Judge Alicia Washington (05:44:54):
Sustained.
Mr Spence (05:44:59):
What was done with the body?
Caylen Deller (05:45:01):
Put him in the pond.
Mr Spence (05:45:07):
What did you do after that?
Caylen Deller (05:45:07):
I was hysterical and upset, and Tina told me to come take a shower at her house.
Mr Spence (05:45:12):
Did you stay at Tina's the rest of the night?
Caylen Deller (05:45:14):
No, sir. She had somewhere to go. She had to go by her job in her boyfriend's house, and I was too scared to stay by myself, so I rode with her.
Mr Spence (05:45:22):
Where's her boyfriend live?
Caylen Deller (05:45:24):
In St. Augustine.
Mr Spence (05:45:30):
Did you stop anywhere before you got to St. Augustine?
Caylen Deller (05:45:33):
Burns Farm.
Mr Spence (05:45:34):
Why did you go there?
Caylen Deller (05:45:36):
She said that she had to collect money from there, from working that day.
Mr Spence (05:45:39):
Okay. Did you stop anywhere else between Burns Farm and the boyfriend's house?
Caylen Deller (05:45:45):
A Circle K to use the restroom.
Mr Spence (05:45:51):
After you go to Tina's boyfriend's house, what do you do?
Caylen Deller (05:45:56):
I go back to her house.
Mr Spence (05:46:00):
Did you have Chad's phone this whole time?
Caylen Deller (05:46:03):
Yes, sir. It had been left in my truck.
Mr Spence (05:46:10):
When did you end up leaving Tina's house?
Caylen Deller (05:46:12):
The following day.
Mr Spence (05:46:14):
Where did you go from there?
Caylen Deller (05:46:16):
My apartment.
Mr Spence (05:46:19):
Why didn't you call 911 once you got away from Tina?
Caylen Deller (05:46:23):
Because I had believed her when she said that law enforcement wasn't going to listen to me about it being self-defense.
Mr Spence (05:46:31):
When did you go back to the stable again?
Caylen Deller (05:46:34):
That following day.
Mr Spence (05:46:35):
On the 10th?
Caylen Deller (05:46:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:46:39):
Did you still have Chad's phone at that point?
Caylen Deller (05:46:42):
Yes, I did.
Mr Spence (05:46:44):
What did you do with it?
Caylen Deller (05:46:45):
Threw it in a fire.
Mr Spence (05:46:46):
Why?
Caylen Deller (05:46:47):
Because I panicked.
Mr Spence (05:46:52):
Now, after all this happened, did you just carry on with life as normal?
Caylen Deller (05:46:55):
No, sir. It was tormenting me and I was having nightmares and I couldn't sleep and I canceled all the lessons at my barn.
Mr Spence (05:47:10):
Did anyone from Chad's family reach out to you?
Caylen Deller (05:47:13):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:47:13):
Who?
Caylen Deller (05:47:14):
Kelly.
Mr Spence (05:47:16):
What did you tell her?
Caylen Deller (05:47:18):
That I would let her know if I knew something.
Mr Spence (05:47:21):
Did you let her know?
Caylen Deller (05:47:22):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:47:23):
Why not?
Caylen Deller (05:47:24):
Same reason. I didn't think she would believe me that it was self-defense.
Mr Spence (05:47:31):
So you said you weren't giving lessons. Were you still going back and forth to the stable?
Caylen Deller (05:47:36):
Yes, sir. I still had animals to feed.
Mr Spence (05:47:41):
Were you going there daily?
Caylen Deller (05:47:43):
Yes, sir. And that's when I noticed that his body had floated up.
Mr Spence (05:47:48):
Was that on September 11th?
Caylen Deller (05:47:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:47:51):
What did you do?
Caylen Deller (05:47:52):
I called Tina.
Mr Spence (05:47:55):
And what was the decision to do with the body at that point?
Caylen Deller (05:47:59):
To take him to Burns Farm.
Mr Spence (05:48:04):
Had you ever been to Burns Farm other than the night of the 10th with Tina?
Caylen Deller (05:48:07):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:48:08):
Were you familiar with that area?
Caylen Deller (05:48:10):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:48:11):
Did you know how to drive a skid steer?
Caylen Deller (05:48:12):
No, sir.
Mr Spence (05:48:19):
How did you get him out of the water?
Caylen Deller (05:48:21):
My four-wheeler.
Mr Spence (05:48:24):
And what did you do with him once you got him out of the water?
Caylen Deller (05:48:27):
Used a horse trailer to transport him.
Mr Spence (05:48:33):
Once you get to the farm, what do you do? Burns Farm.
Caylen Deller (05:48:37):
Pull up next to the house in the parking lot.
Mr Spence (05:48:40):
Who decided where to put the body?
Caylen Deller (05:48:42):
Tina.
Mr Spence (05:48:45):
Who dug the hole?
Caylen Deller (05:48:46):
Tina did.
Mr Spence (05:48:48):
Who moved the dirt?
Caylen Deller (05:48:49):
Tina also did that.
Mr Spence (05:48:51):
With a skid steer?
Caylen Deller (05:48:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:48:52):
Or some type of equipment?
Caylen Deller (05:48:54):
I believe a skid steer.
Mr Spence (05:48:58):
What did you do after burying the body at Burns Farm?
Caylen Deller (05:49:03):
I took the horse trailer back to the stables.
Mr Spence (05:49:07):
Were people still reaching out to you trying to locate Chad?
Caylen Deller (05:49:10):
Yes, sir.
Mr Spence (05:49:12):
Why didn't you ever call 911?
Caylen Deller (05:49:15):
Because I believed her about law enforcement not listening to me, and at that point we'd hidden the body.
Mr Spence (05:49:25):
Where did you get the gun?
Caylen Deller (05:49:27):
Rebecca Davis.
Mr Spence (05:49:29):
Why did you get it?
Caylen Deller (05:49:31):
Because after Chad had broken in my apartment, I felt vulnerable.
Mr Spence (05:49:35):
When did that happen?
Caylen Deller (05:49:36):
August 1st, 2024.
Mr Spence (05:49:41):
If Chad had scared you to the point where you needed to get a gun, why are you even talking to him?
Caylen Deller (05:49:48):
It's not so much that he scared me to the point of getting a gun as much as just him breaking in and made me feel vulnerable.
Speaker 25 (05:50:05):
Did you carry that gun on you all the time?
Caylen Deller (05:50:08):
I tried to but not always.
Speaker 25 (05:50:12):
When you were going to loan that truck to Chad on the 9th, did you plan on leaving that gun in there?
Caylen Deller (05:50:17):
No, sir. I hadn't taken my possessions out yet.
Speaker 25 (05:50:23):
Did you go pick him up in the truck?
Caylen Deller (05:50:25):
No, sir. I used my car.
Speaker 25 (05:50:26):
So you had two vehicles?
Caylen Deller (05:50:33):
I did.
Speaker 25 (05:50:34):
Now, did you talk to Sean Russo after September 9th, I guess on the 13th?
Caylen Deller (05:50:39):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 25 (05:50:40):
Did you tell him you suspected Chad of molesting Ostara?
Caylen Deller (05:50:44):
I may have.
Speaker 25 (05:50:47):
Did you say that you believed Chad was a demon?
Caylen Deller (05:50:50):
No. I mentioned spiritual warfare and demons, but not that I believed Chad was a demon.
Speaker 25 (05:50:58):
Did you say anything about punishing Chad for what he did?
Caylen Deller (05:51:02):
I don't believe I used that phrase. No, sir.
Speaker 25 (05:51:13):
Did you end up talking to Ken?
Caylen Deller (05:51:17):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 25 (05:51:18):
And that would've been over the weekend of September 21st?
Caylen Deller (05:51:22):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 25 (05:51:26):
Did you tell Ken that you shot the gun and then it jammed?
Caylen Deller (05:51:32):
I told him that the gun had jammed, not the way that he described it.
Speaker 25 (05:51:38):
So you didn't tell him that the gun jammed and then you cleared it and then shot him again?
Caylen Deller (05:51:42):
I don't know how to unclear a jam.
Speaker 25 (05:51:47):
What did you tell him?
Caylen Deller (05:51:53):
That I had shot Chad twice in self-defense.
Speaker 25 (05:51:58):
So you told him it was self-defense?
Caylen Deller (05:52:00):
Yes, sir, I had. I don't know why he's not reporting that.
Speaker 25 (05:52:09):
Did you reach out to Chad on September 9th with the intent to kill him?
Caylen Deller (05:52:13):
No, sir.
Speaker 25 (05:52:15):
Did you bring him back to Stormy Stables as part of some plan to kill him?
Caylen Deller (05:52:19):
No, sir.
Speaker 25 (05:52:29):
I have no further questions.
Judge (05:52:34):
All right, Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Lewis (05:52:36):
Thank you, Judge.
(05:52:50)
So your story, as you sit here today, it was self-defense, correct?
Caylen Deller (05:52:56):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:52:57):
Okay. Never told anybody else that, right?
Caylen Deller (05:53:00):
Yes, I did.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:01):
You told that to Ken?
Caylen Deller (05:53:02):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:03):
But when he came in here and said it wasn't self-defense, he was lying? Is that what you're saying?
Caylen Deller (05:53:07):
He lied about a few things.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:10):
I assume when you went to see Sean, you probably told him it was self-defense too, right?
Caylen Deller (05:53:15):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:16):
Well, I don't understand why you were there for five hours. You were really upset. You were talking about Chad being dead, and you didn't think it was important to tell him that it was self-defense that you killed him?
Caylen Deller (05:53:30):
I was talking all kind of crazy stuff. There's a lot of things I said and didn't say that make and do not make sense.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:36):
Well, why didn't you tell him the truth?
Caylen Deller (05:53:36):
What I did say was the truth.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:40):
You did say the truth? The truth that you punished Chad for doing something to Ostara?
Caylen Deller (05:53:48):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:48):
That's the truth?
Caylen Deller (05:53:48):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:53:50):
So when he testified to that, he's lying. Is that what you're saying?
Caylen Deller (05:53:52):
I didn't...
Mr. Lewis (05:53:55):
You were in court. You listened to the whole thing. Is he making that up?
Caylen Deller (05:53:59):
He's making up that part. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:02):
Well, what about Angela Russo? She was there too, right?
Caylen Deller (05:54:06):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:07):
You were friendly with her. You went to her house. They let you sleep over, correct?
Caylen Deller (05:54:11):
In a state of my panic, they let me. I'd never been to their house to stay the night before.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:17):
So the question is yes, they let you stay at the house, right?
Caylen Deller (05:54:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:20):
Just listen to the questions. Okay?
Speaker 25 (05:54:23):
Objection, argumentative.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:25):
Judge, it's just extrapolating.
Judge (05:54:28):
Sustained.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:28):
When you went there, you had an opportunity to tell Angela that you had to kill Chad in self-defense, but you didn't, did you?
Caylen Deller (05:54:35):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:36):
Right. You didn't tell anyone right there when you were so upset for five hours talking about what was going on, that Chad was like a demon, or I think you even said to them you killed his body but not his soul, right? Or is that another lie that they're just making up?
Caylen Deller (05:54:56):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:57):
You did say that, right?
Caylen Deller (05:54:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:54:58):
So when you just admitted that you killed his body, not his soul, basically murdering someone, you didn't think it was important to say, "It was self-defense?"
Caylen Deller (05:55:08):
I wasn't thinking very clearly.
Mr. Lewis (05:55:10):
Correct. Okay.
(05:55:12)
Let's talk about you... I don't understand your story. You contact Chad and go pick him up at 8:30, is that right?
Caylen Deller (05:55:22):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:55:23):
What time do you get back to Stormy Stables?
Caylen Deller (05:55:27):
However long it takes to drive from Bardin to San Mateo.
Mr. Lewis (05:55:30):
About 9:15, 9:10, right?
Caylen Deller (05:55:34):
No, sir. It shouldn't take 45 minutes to travel that far.
Mr. Lewis (05:55:37):
Okay. Well, let's say you arrive back at 9:05. Does that sound about right?
Caylen Deller (05:55:47):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:55:48):
And you're saying that Chad, you pull up to the barn, right? You pull the truck up to the barn, correct?
Caylen Deller (05:55:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:55:56):
And Chad fixes the headlight?
Caylen Deller (05:56:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:56:02):
How long does that take him?
Caylen Deller (05:56:06):
15 minutes.
Mr. Lewis (05:56:09):
Let's talk about the gun. Your attorney asked you a question and you sidestepped it. You said you got a gun because you were so fearful of Chad, right? That's why you got a gun, right? Because he kicked in your door, he came to your house, you needed a gun, right?
Caylen Deller (05:56:28):
Not for him specifically.
Mr. Lewis (05:56:30):
Well... Okay. So you don't want a gun to protect you from the person who you're fearful of?
Caylen Deller (05:56:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:56:37):
So you did get the gun because you were fearful of Chad, right?
Caylen Deller (05:56:41):
If you want to put it that way.
Mr. Lewis (05:56:42):
Well, it's not how I want to put it. I'm asking you, ma'am.
Caylen Deller (05:56:45):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:56:46):
And then even if you're so fearful of Chad, between September 2nd to September 9th, you called him 28 times and you reached out to him. Would you agree with me?
Caylen Deller (05:57:02):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:57:03):
So you're so afraid of Chad, you reached out to him multiple times over that eight-day window, and then you're afraid of Chad and you go and pick him up and bring him to a deserted farm in the middle of the night, 9:00. It's not light out, just the two of you, that's what you're telling this jury?
Caylen Deller (05:57:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:57:24):
And you're telling this jury that you just miraculously, after he fixed the headlight, you thought, " Hey, it's a great idea. Let me confront Chad about molesting Ostara right here. No one else is around. It's dark. There's nothing going on. I think I'm going to ask him about that." Is that what you're telling this jury?
Caylen Deller (05:57:44):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:57:44):
And you think that was a good idea?
Caylen Deller (05:57:46):
It obviously was not a good idea.
Mr. Lewis (05:57:50):
Let's talk about... You claimed that you got a phone call. You claimed you called Michelle Roberts and you were upset because your horse was choking?
Caylen Deller (05:58:18):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:58:20):
And that's why you called her at 9:15 at night?
Caylen Deller (05:58:28):
No, sir. I had called her at noon that day.
Mr. Lewis (05:58:32):
But the phone call she received from you, that she testified to, was a phone call that was received at 9:35 and 21 seconds, right?
Caylen Deller (05:59:21):
A separate phone call. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:59:23):
Well, why'd you call her at that time?
Caylen Deller (05:59:24):
Because I was looking for Tina's house.
Mr. Lewis (05:59:28):
Was this after you killed Chad?
Caylen Deller (05:59:30):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (05:59:32):
How much longer after you killed Chad did you call her?
Caylen Deller (05:59:37):
When I was in the truck trying to find Tina's house.
Mr. Lewis (05:59:42):
So your testimony is you were... What... You took the truck that was just fixed by Chad?
Caylen Deller (05:59:48):
Yes, sir. It's the only truck I have.
Mr. Lewis (05:59:50):
Well, you had your car.
Caylen Deller (05:59:51):
Right, but the keys were in the truck and it was right there.
Mr. Lewis (05:59:55):
And your testimony is that Chad's phone was in the truck, right?
Caylen Deller (06:00:00):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:01):
So the phone went with you to-
Caylen Deller (06:00:04):
To Tina's.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:06):
... Tina's house, right?
Caylen Deller (06:00:08):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:10):
When you went to Tina's house, how long did you stay there for?
Caylen Deller (06:00:14):
I don't know.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:15):
You don't remember?
Caylen Deller (06:00:16):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:27):
You're absolutely certain you took Chad's phone with you to Tina's house?
Caylen Deller (06:00:31):
That's where I found it was in my truck.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:33):
Right. At her house, right? When you went over there initially, right?
Caylen Deller (06:00:39):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:39):
When you left there, his phone was in your truck. Why was his phone in your truck if he wasn't in the truck when you shot him?
Caylen Deller (06:00:46):
Because he had sat down in the driver's seat and turned the keys in ignition.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:49):
And he just laid his phone down in there?
Caylen Deller (06:00:51):
On the dashboard, yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:00:59):
And it's your testimony that Tina's the one who decided what we should do in this case to get rid of Chad, right?
Caylen Deller (06:01:07):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:07):
Right. You had no self-control or self-will to make your own decision, right?
Caylen Deller (06:01:13):
At that moment, I was pretty vulnerable.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:15):
Right. But you're a grown woman, right?
Caylen Deller (06:01:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:18):
You had a child?
Caylen Deller (06:01:19):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:19):
Ran your own business?
Caylen Deller (06:01:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:21):
And you didn't think it was a good idea to call the police?
Caylen Deller (06:01:24):
That's why I suggested to her that I should.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:26):
Well, why didn't you do it before you went to her house?
Caylen Deller (06:01:29):
I was just getting away from him.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:31):
Why didn't you call the police when you got in your truck?
Caylen Deller (06:01:35):
Like I said, I was just trying to get somewhere safe.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:38):
That's not what you said. You said you were trying to go get your daughter, but if you were afraid of him and you were in your truck driving away from that location, and you thought he may have walked off, because he didn't have a vehicle, right?
Caylen Deller (06:01:50):
My car was there, but yes.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:51):
But you said your keys were in the truck for your car, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:01:54):
No, sir. I said the truck keys were in the truck.
Mr. Lewis (06:01:57):
So your keys are in your car, you just left them there, right?
Caylen Deller (06:02:01):
I always leave my keys in my car.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:04):
Did you see him behind you?
Caylen Deller (06:02:05):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:06):
So when you don't see him behind you and when you have the opportunity to call the police, you don't call the police?
Caylen Deller (06:02:12):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:13):
Right. And that wasn't Tina making that decision, that was Caylen Deller, right?
Caylen Deller (06:02:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:17):
You made that decision without any concern or worry about Chad, didn't you?
Caylen Deller (06:02:22):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:22):
No?
Caylen Deller (06:02:25):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:26):
I don't understand what that answer is. Were you concerned about Chad?
Caylen Deller (06:02:31):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:31):
So why didn't you call the police and ask for an ambulance if you possibly hit him? With the shooting, why would you not do that if you're concerned for him?
Caylen Deller (06:02:42):
Because I was more concerned about getting in trouble, I guess.
Mr. Lewis (06:02:46):
But you said you weren't concerned about getting in trouble until after you saw Tina, and this is before you saw Tina, that you've made your own conscious decision not to call the police.
Caylen Deller (06:02:56):
Sir, you can split hairs, but in that moment, I don't know what I was thinking.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:00):
I'm not splitting hairs. I'm asking you.
Caylen Deller (06:03:02):
Okay.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:03):
This is the first time we've ever heard your story, right? You sat through an entire trial sitting at this table listening to everybody else's testimony, and you've had an opportunity to formulate your story around it, right?
Caylen Deller (06:03:15):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:16):
You weren't sitting there listening to everybody testify?
Caylen Deller (06:03:19):
I have been, yes.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:20):
You never called the police to report this, you never told Sean, you never told Angela, you never told anybody else.
Caylen Deller (06:03:27):
Yes, I did.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:28):
Oh, you told Ken, right? But he-
Caylen Deller (06:03:29):
There's other people that I've told that haven't come forward.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:32):
Oh, okay. Really? Who?
Caylen Deller (06:03:35):
I'm not going to give you their names.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:37):
Why?
Caylen Deller (06:03:38):
Because they're not part of this.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:40):
But you told them?
Caylen Deller (06:03:41):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:42):
But are they going to get in trouble for keeping a secret for you?
Caylen Deller (06:03:46):
Failure to report a death to law enforcement or medical examiner, maybe.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:49):
Okay. Well, what's their names? You don't want to tell us?
Caylen Deller (06:03:54):
Jamie Brooks, Wendy Steele.
Mr. Lewis (06:03:57):
And none of them came forward. When did you tell all of them?
Caylen Deller (06:04:01):
After it happened.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:02):
When?
Caylen Deller (06:04:03):
In September 2024.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:06):
How soon after the murder?
Caylen Deller (06:04:07):
I don't recall.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:08):
You don't recall?
Caylen Deller (06:04:10):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:10):
So you told other people but the people who let you stay at their house and stay there for five hours and talked about what actually happened, you didn't tell them that?
Caylen Deller (06:04:21):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:24):
But as you testified here today, you said you told Ken that it was self-defense?
Caylen Deller (06:04:28):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:29):
What'd you tell them?
Caylen Deller (06:04:29):
That it was self-defense, that Chad had attacked me.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:35):
It was self-defense and Chad had attacked you? And he just forgot that?
Caylen Deller (06:04:40):
No, sir. There's a lot of things that Ken tells differently or makes up.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:46):
Well, you lied multiple times to people, didn't you?
Caylen Deller (06:04:50):
I may have told them bits and pieces of the truth.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:53):
That's called a lie, right?
Caylen Deller (06:04:55):
If that's the case, then Ken's lying.
Mr. Lewis (06:04:57):
Okay. Well, I'm asking you. So when you talked to Chad's family and they asked, "Where's Chad?" And you said, "I don't know." That's a lie.
Caylen Deller (06:05:05):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:05:06):
When other people contact you and said, "Do you know where Chad is?" And you say, "I don't know," that's a lie.
Caylen Deller (06:05:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:05:12):
So you lied multiple times over and over again about what happened to Chad?
Caylen Deller (06:05:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:05:17):
And now you want this jury, as they sit here today, to believe you after you're sitting here telling a story for the first time. Is that what you're telling us?
Caylen Deller (06:05:28):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:05:31):
Let's walk through... So you go to Tina's house in your truck with Chad's phone, you stay there for a little while. What happens right after that? You go back to the barn, right? To show Tina. That's what you said. "I took Tina back to the barn and I showed her where Chad was," or I just asked her to come look at it, right?
Caylen Deller (06:05:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:05:56):
And then you get back to the barn, you guys decide to drag... How did you get Chad into the water?
Caylen Deller (06:06:03):
My four-wheeler.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:04):
Your four-wheeler, okay. And then where did you get the cinder block from?
Caylen Deller (06:06:09):
The barn.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:09):
And then all the other stuff you accumulated from the barn, right?
Caylen Deller (06:06:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:14):
Red hook from your barn?
Caylen Deller (06:06:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:16):
Did you break that off the ceiling so you can drive him there? Remember, because it was on your ceiling in your barn.
Caylen Deller (06:06:24):
There was multiple hooks.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:26):
So you used multiple hooks to drag him?
Caylen Deller (06:06:28):
No, sir. I just had multiple ones around the barn.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:30):
So you drag him with the four-wheeler to the water, and how do you actually get him in the water?
Caylen Deller (06:06:36):
Pulled him into the water.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:37):
Yourself? You just pulled him in yourself?
Caylen Deller (06:06:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:42):
You're a little bit bigger now than you were then. You were skinnier, right?
Caylen Deller (06:06:47):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:47):
Yeah. How much did you weigh back then?
Caylen Deller (06:06:49):
153 pounds.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:51):
And you pulled Chad, how much did he weigh? About 200 pounds?
Caylen Deller (06:06:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:55):
So you pulled him into the water?
Caylen Deller (06:06:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:06:59):
With the cinder block?
Caylen Deller (06:07:00):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:02):
Tina didn't help you?
Caylen Deller (06:07:04):
She may have assisted.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:07):
So you go back, you do that, and then you decide to go take a shower and clean up, right?
Caylen Deller (06:07:13):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:13):
Go back to her house?
Caylen Deller (06:07:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:15):
And you're still driving your truck, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:07:18):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:19):
And then you get to Tina's house?
Caylen Deller (06:07:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:21):
And then she has to do an errand, you say, right?
Caylen Deller (06:07:24):
Mm-hmm
Mr. Lewis (06:07:25):
Is that a yes?
Caylen Deller (06:07:25):
Yep.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:27):
Whose vehicle goes driving at that time on the errand?
Caylen Deller (06:07:30):
Tina's.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:30):
Tina's vehicle, okay. And Chad's phone is still in your car, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:07:36):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:37):
Why not?
Caylen Deller (06:07:38):
Because I saw it and I got it.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:40):
So you saw Chad's phone in your car and then you took it out to drive with you around town?
Caylen Deller (06:07:46):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:47):
Why? Were you expecting an important call from someone for him?
Caylen Deller (06:07:54):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:54):
Did you think maybe he had a better internet package than you did?
Caylen Deller (06:07:57):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:07:58):
So why would you drive around with his phone?
Caylen Deller (06:08:00):
I don't know why.
Mr. Lewis (06:08:03):
And then you guys leave Tina's house somewhere around 3:00 A.M. and start heading to St. Augustine, right?
Caylen Deller (06:08:23):
If that's what the record reflects.
Mr. Lewis (06:08:26):
Would you like me to show you the records? Would that help you refresh your memory?
Caylen Deller (06:08:29):
No, sir. I wouldn't remember because I don't know.
Mr. Lewis (06:08:31):
Okay. So if the records reflect you all leave around 3:00 A.M., your testimony to this jury is that Tina worked a job and at 3:00 A.M. in the dead of night, in the middle of nowhere, she went to a farm to go get paid?
Caylen Deller (06:08:47):
Yes, sir. She had the combination to the safe and went in the safe and got her money.
Mr. Lewis (06:08:51):
Wait, she had the combination to a safe at the farm?
Caylen Deller (06:08:57):
She said she had to go in a safe and get money.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:02):
So Tina, just the person who is like little security-
Caylen Deller (06:09:05):
Maybe she didn't have the combination. I misspoke.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:09):
Well, you just said that's what she told you.
Caylen Deller (06:09:11):
She said she had to go in a safe and get money.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:15):
Mr. Burns, who testified here, who said he really wasn't giving her but $50 or less at that time-
Caylen Deller (06:09:21):
Maybe that's [inaudible 06:09:21]-
Mr. Lewis (06:09:22):
... he miraculously is going to let her go into the safe and take out money?
Caylen Deller (06:09:26):
I'm just telling you what she said.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:28):
You didn't think that was odd that you were in the middle of nowhere at 3:00 A.M. in the morning to collect the paycheck?
Caylen Deller (06:09:33):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:36):
You didn't say anything like, "What the heck's going on here?"
(06:09:39)
Isn't it true you guys went out there because you were scouting where you were going to move Chad's body to?
Caylen Deller (06:09:45):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:48):
No? Okay.
(06:09:48)
And then you went from there to St. Augustine, right?
Caylen Deller (06:09:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:09:52):
And then came back?
Caylen Deller (06:09:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:10:04):
That night when Chad... Before you picked him up though, you had a conversation with your daughter earlier in the day where you were trying to ask her about Chad molesting you or touching her, molesting her or touching her, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:10:19):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:10:20):
Right. And you, in fact, videotaped that, right?
Caylen Deller (06:10:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:10:22):
Right. And you were mad that he had done that to your daughter or thought he had done that to the daughter?
Caylen Deller (06:10:29):
I don't know if I'd say mad.
Mr. Lewis (06:10:30):
You weren't mad that someone was allegedly molesting your four and five-year-old child?
Caylen Deller (06:10:35):
I was hurt and confused.
Mr. Lewis (06:10:38):
Hurt and confused. So the person who's molesting your child, allegedly, which was what you believe, because you called Ken that day and you told him too, you told Ken on the 9th, "I think Chad is molesting Ostara." Do you remember that?
Caylen Deller (06:10:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:10:53):
Right. In fact, and then you texted him back around 3:30, 4:00. "I got it under control. Don't worry." Remember texting him back that?
Caylen Deller (06:11:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:11:03):
So your daughter's being molested by a grown man who you think is a good idea that you're going to go bring that person back with you alone there. Does that make any sense? You know what I'm saying? It absolutely makes no sense that you would go... The person who's molesting your five-year-old daughter... You got to be pissed off. Any adult or parent would be pissed off if their kid's being molested by an adult male, right?
Caylen Deller (06:11:32):
There was no proof that he was doing that.
Mr. Lewis (06:11:34):
You asked her. You were trying to ask her over again, and you told Ken that you think that's what he's doing.
Speaker 25 (06:11:38):
Objection. Asked and answered.
Judge (06:11:39):
Overruled.
Mr. Lewis (06:11:43):
Right? So now you're saying there was no evidence of it, right?
Caylen Deller (06:11:47):
Right.
Mr. Lewis (06:11:50):
But your daughter had discharge from her vagina and you thought that was directly related to him molesting her, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:11:57):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:11:58):
No, you never told that to Angela Russo? Is that what you're testifying here today?
Caylen Deller (06:12:03):
Not about Chad molesting her. No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:05):
Did you tell her that your daughter had green stuff coming from her vagina?
Caylen Deller (06:12:10):
In the past, from having pinworms, she did.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:14):
So you believe Chad molested your daughter, you think he might have, and you're telling this jury that you didn't lure him back to your house because you were pissed off and shoot him?
Caylen Deller (06:12:27):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:28):
No? And miraculously, while he's choking you, there's that gun that's right there you can reach, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:12:33):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:34):
It's like a miracle, right?
Caylen Deller (06:12:37):
I wouldn't say so.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:39):
Okay. Well, why didn't you call the police as soon as you thought someone was molesting your child?
Caylen Deller (06:12:49):
I don't call the police for every little thing, and I'd called them about other things and they never helped me.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:55):
So you would never call the police on someone molesting your child?
Caylen Deller (06:12:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:12:59):
You would or wouldn't?
Caylen Deller (06:13:00):
I would, but I wanted to ask the person first.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:02):
So you think it's a good idea to confront someone in the middle of the dark if they're molesting your child?
Caylen Deller (06:13:07):
I stated it was probably not a good idea.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:27):
How well lit was it back there?
Caylen Deller (06:13:31):
I'm not sure how to answer that question.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:34):
It was well lit enough for Chad to change a headlight, right?
Caylen Deller (06:13:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:38):
So you could see what was going on in front of you, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:13:40):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:41):
You could see Chad had a hammer according to you, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:13:43):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:44):
You could see him coming at you, right?
Caylen Deller (06:13:46):
Mm-hmm
Mr. Lewis (06:13:46):
What was the distance between you guys?
Caylen Deller (06:13:50):
I don't recall.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:51):
You don't recall?
Caylen Deller (06:13:52):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:53):
This must have been a traumatic event, right?
Caylen Deller (06:13:56):
Right. So I get tunnel vision and traumatic events.
Mr. Lewis (06:13:58):
Okay. So where the car was parked to where the railing is, what's the distance?
Caylen Deller (06:14:05):
From me to that rail maybe? A little further? I don't know.
Mr. Lewis (06:14:08):
So between these two right here or that rail?
Caylen Deller (06:14:12):
A lot further than that because the truck door was open, seeing it was beyond the door of the truck.
Mr. Lewis (06:14:19):
Okay. And when you shot Chad, he didn't yell like, "Ow. Oh my God, I've been shot."
Caylen Deller (06:14:27):
Like I said, I had tunnel vision. I don't know what all the little details of the instance.
Mr. Lewis (06:14:31):
Sure. And Chad, who had molested your daughter, you contacted him at 6:00 to come to talk to him on the 9th, you contacted him at 7:13, you contacted him at 7:24, you contacted him at 7:58, you contacted him other times, and then at 8:33, when you get to his house, you contact him again, right?
Caylen Deller (06:14:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:14:58):
The person who you had just found out was molesting your daughter, you thought was, you drove over to his house at 8:33 to pick him up to be alone in the car, correct?
Caylen Deller (06:15:07):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:15:29):
And you never told Chad that when you shot... I mean, you never told Ken when you shot Chad that the gun jammed and then he gave you this stare for a minute while you unjammed it and it's something that'll be burned in your brain forever?
Caylen Deller (06:15:47):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:15:47):
So he just made that up?
Caylen Deller (06:15:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:15:55):
Did you tell him you're not going to believe the role Stormy played in this?
Caylen Deller (06:15:58):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:16:42):
Did you guys take Ostara with you when you were driving late that night?
Caylen Deller (06:16:45):
No, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:16:47):
Who'd you leave her with?
Caylen Deller (06:16:49):
People at Tina's house.
Mr. Lewis (06:16:51):
Just at Tina's house?
Caylen Deller (06:16:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:16:54):
Was there anyone there?
Caylen Deller (06:16:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:17:22):
And as you sit here today, you never told Angela and Sean Russo and never asked them the question, "Do I have the right to punish someone who's molesting my daughter?"
Speaker 25 (06:17:35):
Objection, asked and answered.
Judge (06:17:38):
Overruled.
Mr. Lewis (06:17:39):
That's what you're saying, you never said that to them?
Caylen Deller (06:17:41):
Correct.
Mr. Lewis (06:17:41):
[inaudible 06:17:54], judge.
(06:17:41)
Just can we come sidebar for a moment?
Brian (06:17:41):
All rise as jurors exit the courtroom.
Judge (06:17:41):
All right. The jury has exited. Everyone can be seated. [inaudible 06:19:56].
Mr. Lewis (06:20:00):
Judge, I believe the defendant has opened the door in reference to... She's previously reported that Ken Waddell molested her daughter and she contacted the police and they did an investigation into that. Yet in this instance, she decided to take it in her own hands or investigate it herself. I think it's become relevant at this point to know that she knows she can call the police. The police can investigate that and somebody look into to test her veracity on this issue.
Speaker 25 (06:20:27):
I don't believe she's opened the door. She's talked about this incident. She hasn't claimed... There was no question as to whether she's made allegations against anybody previously where she's denied it. So then therefore it would come in at that point.
(06:20:44)
I would argue that she's admitted that she asked the question of Mr. Mullen. The state did not. I did not ask her, and the state did not ask her if she's made allegations like this against anyone previously in which she's denied it. And then therefore they could bring it in rebuttal. I would argue that it's not admissible.
Mr. Lewis (06:21:08):
Judge, I don't want to ask that question without the court's permission. Have you ever done that to somebody else and reported it and known to report the police? That's why I'm asking the court's permission. The defense that I haven't asked yet, I would never ask that without the court's permission.
Judge (06:21:20):
The court's rule will be that she has not opened the door for that testimony.
Mr. Lewis (06:21:22):
Okay.
Judge (06:21:23):
I don't believe it's relevant to the trial in this case.
Mr. Lewis (06:21:25):
Okay. Thank you, Judge.
Judge (06:21:31):
So will you still have some more cross [inaudible 06:21:33]?
Mr. Lewis (06:21:32):
I don't think so, ma'am.
Judge (06:21:33):
So we'll bring them back out. You have redirect?
Speaker 25 (06:21:36):
Maybe two questions or a couple questions.
Judge (06:21:44):
So then we're going to bring them in and then we're going to bring them back out to the stand.
Speaker 25 (06:21:45):
Yes, ma'am. [inaudible 06:21:48]-
Judge (06:21:50):
No. If you got questions, you got a question. I'm just talking about the semantics of it.
(06:21:55)
So we ready? Ready to bring them back?
Speaker 25 (06:21:55):
I'm ready.
Judge (06:21:55):
All right, let's see.
Brian (06:22:01):
All rise. The jurors in the courtroom.
(06:22:03)
We have a couple more in the bathroom.
Judge (06:22:03):
Huh?
Brian (06:22:03):
We have a couple going to the bathroom now.
Judge (06:22:15):
You put the white noise back on.
(06:22:16)
All right, so we'll be in a short recess because some of them are using the restroom.
(06:22:20)
Brian, can you tell them to knock when they're done?
Brian (06:22:26):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge (06:22:26):
Let me know when [inaudible 06:22:28].
Mr. Lewis (06:33:06):
We're ready, Mr. Willard's just... And we're good to start without him.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:33:20):
All right. It's cold in here.
Speaker 26 (06:33:20):
All rise. The jurors here in the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:33:56):
All right, everyone can be seated.
Mr. Lewis (06:34:20):
Judge, I have no other questions.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:34:21):
Oh, thank you. And Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith (06:34:28):
Why was the gun in your truck?
Caylen Deller (06:34:30):
Because I'd used my truck earlier that day.
Mr. Smith (06:34:34):
Did you have the gun in the truck with you earlier that day?
Caylen Deller (06:34:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:34:38):
Why didn't you take it out?
Caylen Deller (06:34:40):
Because in the rush from switching from my truck to my car, I forgot it.
Mr. Smith (06:34:45):
Where were you in such a rush to go?
Caylen Deller (06:34:47):
To get Chad.
Mr. Smith (06:34:49):
Now you testified that you had gotten the gun because of him coming to your house, I guess on August 1st of 2024.
Caylen Deller (06:34:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:34:58):
Were there any other similar incidents?
Caylen Deller (06:35:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:35:02):
Where?
Caylen Deller (06:35:03):
At my residence at Smith Lane.
Mr. Smith (06:35:08):
What happened?
Caylen Deller (06:35:10):
A few nights later, I'd heard a commotion outside the kitchen window and though someone was trying to break in. I saw a hand print on the window the next morning.
Mr. Smith (06:35:18):
Did you see anybody out there?
Caylen Deller (06:35:20):
No, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:35:21):
Were there any other incidents other than that?
Caylen Deller (06:35:25):
The August 1st incident.
Mr. Smith (06:35:27):
Okay.
Caylen Deller (06:35:28):
Where he tried to break in at 4:30 in the morning.
Mr. Smith (06:35:31):
Were there any incidents at the stable?
Caylen Deller (06:35:33):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:35:35):
When was that?
Caylen Deller (06:35:37):
Sometime around September 2nd, when he set off fireworks at my farm.
Mr. Smith (06:35:45):
Was he invited over at that time?
Caylen Deller (06:35:46):
No, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:35:49):
Did he just show up?
Caylen Deller (06:35:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:35:51):
Was there anybody there besides you?
Caylen Deller (06:35:54):
A bunch of kids I was giving lessons to and my four-year-old.
Mr. Smith (06:35:58):
Did you end up calling the police on him?
Caylen Deller (06:36:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:36:03):
Did you do anything else?
Caylen Deller (06:36:05):
I recorded a video.
Mr. Smith (06:36:10):
Judge, can I approach the witness? I'm going to show you a USB with a video on it. Do you recall ever, or have you seen that video?
Caylen Deller (06:36:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Smith (06:36:25):
Who recorded that video?
Caylen Deller (06:36:27):
I did.
Mr. Smith (06:36:28):
Is it a fair and accurate depiction of what occurred that day?
Caylen Deller (06:36:30):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lewis (06:36:32):
I'm going to object. This is redirect and we've already had argument on this.
Mr. Smith (06:36:38):
May we approach?
Judge Alicia Washington (06:36:44):
Sure.
Mr. Smith (06:36:44):
I have no other questions.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:37:19):
All right. Any follow up, Mr. Lewis?
Mr. Lewis (06:37:25):
No, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:37:27):
All right, so we got to put you on another quick break.
Speaker 26 (06:37:31):
All rise. The jurors exit the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:38:09):
All right, the jury has exited and we'll go ahead and escort Ms. Deller back to the defense table. And Mr. Smith, does the defense have any additional witnesses?
Mr. Smith (06:38:42):
No. Once the jury comes in, we will be [inaudible 06:38:46].
Judge Alicia Washington (06:38:46):
Is the State attending the following rebuttal?
Speaker 29 (06:38:48):
Yes, Your Honor. State will have at least one rebuttal witness.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:38:48):
Are you calling today?
Speaker 29 (06:38:56):
Yes, Your Honor. [inaudible 06:38:57] are available. They can walk right in right now.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:38:59):
Can we, even though it's out of order, can we do your renewed JOA motion now? I'll have you re-rest. You can rest, make the argument, and I'll have you re-rest on it.
Mr. Smith (06:39:20):
Yes, Judge. At this point, at this time, we would move for a motion for judgment of acquittal in regards to all three counts in regards to this case. And we would renew all prior motions and objections.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:39:22):
And State, your response?
Mr. Lewis (06:39:26):
Judge, the State obviously, it's a credibility issue for the jury whether or not they believe her, so at this point, it should go to the jury reference to the case [inaudible 06:39:33].
Judge Alicia Washington (06:39:34):
And so based on all the evidence presented, the court's going to find that there is sufficient evidence to go forward to a jury based on what's being presented so far by both the State and the defense, the jury question. So we'll bring the jury back out. I'll allow you to close in front of them again. Then I'll ask if the State has any rebuttal witnesses and then we'll go from there. All right? All right. Let's hopefully get all to go back to the restroom.
Speaker 26 (06:40:04):
All rise. The jurors are in the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:40:15):
Told you. We'll just hang out. Are they ready? All right. All right. And every jury has returned. Everyone can be seated. And Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith (06:40:55):
At this time, the defense would rest.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:41:00):
All right. The defense has rested its case. Does the State have any rebuttal?
Speaker 29 (06:41:04):
We do, Your Honor. State will call Ken Waddell.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:41:19):
And then I know we swore him yesterday, but let's just swear him again.
Speaker 27 (06:41:26):
Yes, ma'am. Raise your right hand for me. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this cause will be the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Kenneth Waddell (06:41:30):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 27 (06:41:30):
Thank you. Have a seat.
Speaker 28 (06:41:38):
Good afternoon again. Good afternoon again, Mr. Waddell. Back when you were in a relationship with the defendant in this case and you guys spent a lot of time at Stormy Stables, did you guys ever shoot on the property?
Kenneth Waddell (06:41:53):
Guns?
Speaker 28 (06:41:53):
Shoot guns?
Kenneth Waddell (06:41:54):
Yes.
Speaker 28 (06:41:57):
Did the defendant or did either you or defendant keep guns on the property?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:01):
Yes.
Speaker 28 (06:42:02):
Okay. And how often would you go on the property at Stormy Stables and shoot off guns?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:10):
It wasn't a really set thing. It was a boredom thing. We would go back and shoot at the edge of the property.
Speaker 28 (06:42:17):
Did the defendant know how to use a gun?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:19):
Yes.
Speaker 28 (06:42:20):
Did she know how to load a firearm?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:23):
Yes. Yes, very good.
Speaker 28 (06:42:26):
She was good at loading a firearm?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:28):
Yeah. The gentleman she dated after me shot with her even more than we did.
Speaker 28 (06:42:33):
Okay. I would just want to just keep it to your experiences.
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:36):
Okay.
Speaker 28 (06:42:36):
Did she know how to cock a gun?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:39):
Yes.
Speaker 28 (06:42:39):
Did she know how to unjam a gun?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:41):
Yes.
Speaker 28 (06:42:42):
And would you say it was somewhat regular that you and her would go to the far end of the property and shoot off guns?
Kenneth Waddell (06:42:52):
Yes.
Speaker 28 (06:42:55):
Now, taking you back the dates of September 21st to the 23rd, when the defendant and Ostara were staying with you at the hotel, did the defendant ever mention to you that Chad had attacked her the night of September 9th?
Kenneth Waddell (06:43:13):
No, sir.
Speaker 28 (06:43:14):
Did she ever mention to you that Chad came after her that night?
Kenneth Waddell (06:43:18):
No, sir.
Speaker 28 (06:43:19):
Did she ever mention to you that she was acting as self-defense?
Kenneth Waddell (06:43:22):
No.
Speaker 28 (06:43:24):
One moment please, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor. Nothing further.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:43:28):
Have any follow up?
Mr. Smith (06:43:29):
I have no questions.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:43:43):
All right, thank you, Mr. Waddell.
Speaker 29 (06:43:43):
Your Honor, the State would call Angela Russo.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:44:09):
Ms. Russo, before you stand, you raise your right hand.
Speaker 27 (06:44:11):
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give in this cause will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Angela Russo (06:44:16):
I do.
Speaker 29 (06:44:20):
Good afternoon, ma'am. Will you please state your name for the record?
Angela Russo (06:44:21):
My name is Angela Russo, R-U-S-S-O.
Speaker 29 (06:44:24):
And Ms. Russo, how do you know Sean Russo?
Angela Russo (06:44:27):
He's my husband.
Speaker 29 (06:44:28):
Okay. And do you know the defendant in this case?
Angela Russo (06:44:31):
I do.
Speaker 29 (06:44:32):
And do you know her from the horse riding community in Palatka?
Angela Russo (06:44:35):
Horse world. I'm an animal rescue and an outreach.
Speaker 29 (06:44:38):
Okay. So you kind of knew her or formed a relationship through her interest in animals and horses specifically?
Angela Russo (06:44:46):
Yes.
Speaker 29 (06:44:46):
Okay. I'm going to take you back to the date of September 13th of 2024.
Angela Russo (06:44:51):
Okay.
Speaker 29 (06:44:53):
Now, do you recall receiving a call from the defendant earlier that night?
Angela Russo (06:45:00):
I do.
Speaker 29 (06:45:03):
Okay. Was she crying in that phone call?
Angela Russo (06:45:05):
She seemed distressed. She seemed busy. She was mentioning to me how something was broken with her car and that his song was on the radio and it didn't really make much sense, but she sounded upset.
Speaker 29 (06:45:17):
Okay, so she sounded upset.
Angela Russo (06:45:18):
Yep.
Speaker 29 (06:45:18):
Okay. Now, at some point, because of that phone call, did you invite her and her daughter to spend the night with you?
Angela Russo (06:45:25):
I did.
Speaker 29 (06:45:26):
Okay. At your house with your husband?
Angela Russo (06:45:28):
I did. I said, "Bring your daughter and we'll give her a safe place for tonight."
Speaker 29 (06:45:31):
Okay. And when she arrived, does she still appear distressed to you?
Angela Russo (06:45:36):
Yes. Shaken, distressed.
Speaker 29 (06:45:39):
Now, while she was at your house, were you guys talking?
Angela Russo (06:45:45):
Yes, we were.
Speaker 29 (06:45:46):
Okay. And was Sean kind of in and out of that conversation?
Angela Russo (06:45:49):
Yes.
Speaker 29 (06:45:50):
Okay. Do you recall any time during that conversation that the defendant mentioned to you that she... Well, let me back up. Did she ever make a statement to you or ask you if she would have the right or someone would have the right to punish someone for-
Mr. Smith (06:46:11):
Objection, leading.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:46:13):
I'll sustain the objection.
Speaker 29 (06:46:16):
Okay. Let me back up. Did she talk to you about Chad Mullen?
Angela Russo (06:46:21):
She did.
Speaker 29 (06:46:22):
Okay. And did she mention anything about someone having a right to punish someone?
Angela Russo (06:46:30):
She did. Her first comment amongst multiple other conversations through that night was, "What would you do if somebody had molested your daughter?" My exact words were-
Speaker 29 (06:46:41):
What was your response?
Angela Russo (06:46:41):
... "I would say I'd fucking kill them, but it's against my faith on that, and we don't have the right." And that's what opened the conversation of what she said.
Speaker 29 (06:46:55):
Okay. Did she mention anything about punishing Chad?
Angela Russo (06:46:59):
Yes. Multiple things.
Speaker 29 (06:47:01):
Did she mention anything about doing something to his body versus his soul?
Angela Russo (06:47:05):
Multiple times. Objection, leading.
Speaker 29 (06:47:07):
Sustained. What did she say about punishing Chad?
Angela Russo (06:47:11):
She had grabbed my wrist at one point, and I didn't realize at first who she was talking to, and she said, "Angel, you don't understand. He's fucking dead." I said, "Who? Who are we even talking to?" And my husband jumped in because she was talking about demons and her soul and her faith. And she said, "Don't I have the right? I have the right. I judged his body. I didn't fucking judge a soul. He's dead." I said, "Did he have a heart attack?" I have no clue who you're even talking about at this point until she's grabbed her arm where she has Chad's name tattooed on her arm. We had a five-hour conversation about that subject because I don't believe in it.
Speaker 29 (06:47:47):
And then while she was staying with you and talking to you during those five hours, did she mention she was acting in self-defense?
Angela Russo (06:47:52):
Nope.
Speaker 29 (06:48:03):
Okay. Nothing further, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:48:05):
All right. Any follow up?
Mr. Smith (06:48:07):
No questions.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:48:08):
Thank you, ma'am.
Angela Russo (06:48:09):
You're welcome.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:48:29):
All right. And does the State rest at this time?
Speaker 29 (06:48:34):
At this time, Your Honor, State would rest.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:48:36):
All right. I think what we'll do is we'll make it an early day. Anyone disagree with that? We'll go ahead and release you for the day. You'll come back tomorrow morning again, 8:45, jury lounge. Same rules apply. Don't talk to anybody. Don't watch any pretrial publicity, news. Don't talk to your family members, anything. You guys have all been doing great, so just hang in there with us, and then 8:45 tomorrow morning. Any questions? No? All right. Leave notebooks down. Juror badges down as well.
Speaker 26 (06:49:20):
All rise as the jurors exit the courtroom.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:49:23):
Same as yesterday. I want everybody to remain in the courtroom until the bailiffs clear you to go out. Although you guys have been breaking a lot, you probably don't need to use the restroom. All right. The jury has exited. Everyone can be seated when we're clear. The reason why I ask that Mr. Mullen's family leave first is just because I assume that Ms. Deller's supporters want to see her for as long as they can see her while she's still seated today. So that's the reason why I excuse this side first, as soon as we get the clear, and then we'll excuse Ms. Deller's supporters.
Mr. Smith (06:52:59):
I'm not going to prepare for them to do that. I guess I'll work on that then, but I haven't done it yet.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:53:05):
I mean, I prefer to just... We can do it now.
Mr. Lewis (06:53:09):
I guess we could. It's a very comprehensive instruction, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:53:12):
Because I want to have them... The goal is tomorrow morning, by the end of the day, I have packets printed, sitting on the seats, ready to go, so we'll pull them in in the morning. So let's see. Let me pull the standard.
Mr. Lewis (06:53:33):
Do you want to put it up on the screen, Judge? Just work from that altogether?
Judge Alicia Washington (06:53:36):
Sure.
Mr. Lewis (06:53:43):
Can I just have one moment to run the restroom? I'll be right back.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:54:29):
Yeah. Yeah, if anybody need a break, we can take a break. So that would be 3.6F.
Speaker 30 (06:54:30):
[inaudible 06:55:25].
Mr. Lewis (06:56:09):
I'm just going to get the instruction, Judge, to put it up there. So, 3.6F.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:56:11):
And that goes after...
Mr. Lewis (06:56:58):
I think it would go just right after... Yeah, I think it goes right there before anything else. Yeah, so it would be after the charges. I think after the three charges.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:57:13):
After the three, right before the plea of not guilty?
Mr. Lewis (06:57:15):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:57:16):
All right. All right. So it is a defense to the crime of first degree murder, including lesser-included offenses. Would we list all of them under this instruction there?
Mr. Lewis (06:57:47):
I would think we have to.
Mr. Smith (06:57:47):
I think we'd list them all.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:57:49):
As a defense to the crime... Are you going to make the changes while we're having the record?
Mr. Lewis (06:57:54):
I was going to try and do that, yes ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:57:58):
Of first degree murder, second degree murder, and manslaughter. See, you ended up helping him anyway. If the actions of Caylen Suvanna Deller...
Mr. Lewis (06:58:24):
Is it S-U...
Judge Alicia Washington (06:58:26):
S-U-V-A-N-N-A. And then Caylen is the C-A-Y-L-E-N.
Mr. Lewis (06:58:36):
We'll fix the color after.
Judge Alicia Washington (06:58:38):
All right. Constituted the justifiable use of deadly force. Then we'll have the definition of deadly force. And then that third paragraph, Caylen Suvanna Deller does not have the burden of proving that she was justified in using deadly force. And then do the State and defense agree that only A would apply?
Mr. Smith (07:00:02):
Yes.
Mr. Lewis (07:00:02):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:00:10):
Can we make, instead of making it an A... You with me. See?
Mr. Lewis (07:00:15):
I'm following.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:00:15):
Mr. Lewis, you and I, we're on the same page. All right.
(07:00:17)
Mr. Lewis, do they have to replace your computers often?
Mr. Lewis (07:01:13):
Nope. I got two I just rotate.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:01:17):
You are hard on a keyboard.
Speaker 31 (07:01:19):
We didn't fix the top [inaudible 07:01:30]. The he/she and the [inaudible 07:01:30]
Mr. Lewis (07:01:30):
Okay, cool. I don't think that one's applicable. Right? You agree, Brian?
Defense (07:02:45):
[inaudible 07:02:46] No.
Mr. Lewis (07:03:18):
What do you want here? Do you want anything or do you not want this one? Obviously it's not murder, but do you want to commit...
Defense (07:03:27):
Aggravated battery?
Mr. Lewis (07:03:28):
I don't think it would be aggravated... Oh, I guess it'd be aggravated assault because he didn't actually hit her.
Speaker 31 (07:03:40):
Well, it was an attempt to commit an aggravated battery.
Mr. Lewis (07:03:40):
Which is an assault. If you want attempt.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:03:47):
From the testimony, all I got was an aggravated assault.
Speaker 31 (07:03:47):
Okay.
Mr. Lewis (07:04:01):
No, it's not attempt.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:04:02):
It's aggravated assault.
Speaker 31 (07:04:05):
Sorry. She was resisting an attempt to commit an assault.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:04:18):
So we backspace and delete, so it would just read while resisting any attempt to commit an aggravated assault upon her.
Defense (07:04:40):
Well, it could be an attempted aggravated battery. I understand that's an aggravated assault.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:04:45):
Yes.
(07:04:50)
All right. Then the next paragraph, which is person is not justified in using force. Oh, that doesn't apply, about the law enforcement officer.
Mr. Lewis (07:05:05):
All right.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:05:05):
So none of that applies. And then if we go down to give in all cases. In deciding whether Caylen Savannah Deller was justified in the use of deadly force, you must consider the circumstances at the time the force was used. That whole paragraph. It says read in all cases.
Defense (07:05:26):
[inaudible 07:05:27] got one about [inaudible 07:05:29].
Mr. Lewis (07:05:28):
Oh, gotcha. Thanks, bud. I see it.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:06:39):
Has the defense requested any of the other fact specific sections? I don't believe that the section regarding presumption of fear, unlawful and forcible entry into dwelling residence or occupied vehicle will be applicable.
Defense (07:07:11):
No.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:07:15):
So we take all of that out.
Mr. Lewis (07:08:23):
I don't think this one's applicable. That's usually when it's on somebody else. Because the paragraph before operates on them.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:08:32):
You're talking about the section that's on the specific act of victim known by defendant?
Mr. Lewis (07:08:36):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:08:37):
All right. And is the defense under any theory requesting that?
Defense (07:08:45):
No.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:08:45):
All right, so that'd be removed. There was no reputation testimony. That would be removed.
(07:08:56)
And physical abilities would be removed. So if you wanted to email just that one, I can print it so that we can all have it in hard copy to look at.
Mr. Lewis (07:09:15):
Sure. That'd be great.
Defense (07:09:35):
Excuse me, can you copy that bracket, on the last paragraph after defense? Thank you.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:10:10):
Don't you want to justify it?
Mr. Lewis (07:10:11):
I certainly will. [inaudible 07:10:13] save it before I lose it. And then, you want it all justified?
Judge Alicia Washington (07:10:23):
Not the title.
Mr. Lewis (07:10:24):
Not the title.
(07:10:29)
Better?
Judge Alicia Washington (07:10:31):
It's beautiful.
Mr. Lewis (07:10:31):
Excellent.
(07:10:31)
Okay. Should be off now.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:10:53):
It's two copies of each.
(07:10:53)
Just let me know when you finish reviewing it. Thank you, sir.
Defense (07:10:53):
I'm done. I'm done reviewing it.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:14:06):
Oh, okay. Any objection to the instruction as drafted?
Defense (07:14:33):
Not at this time. I'm going to look into whether, and I understand that attempted aggravated battery is essentially the same as an aggravated assault, but...
Mr. Lewis (07:14:43):
If they want attempted aggravated battery in there too, I don't care. Aggravated assault and/or attempted aggravated battery. It doesn't bother me. Whatever they want.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:14:53):
All right. Is that the only change you were requesting?
Defense (07:14:54):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:15:24):
All right, so what I'm going to do is, I'm going to take that instruction and just copy and paste it into the last set of instructions that Mr. Lewis has sent over.
(07:15:49)
I'll bold the title.
(07:15:50)
Oops.
(07:15:50)
All right. Now, for formatting purposes... All right. I'll insert page [inaudible 07:16:33] there. I put that on its own separate page. I'll email it out to you guys.
Mr. Lewis (07:16:47):
Thank you, Judge.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:16:49):
That way, that instruction takes up one page and then the plea of not guilty starts on a different page.
(07:16:54)
Do I have to send it to everybody? I think I have everybody.
(07:16:54)
And then again, there was no issues with the verdict form, correct?
Mr. Lewis (07:18:06):
Not from the state, Judge.
Defense (07:18:06):
No, I have no issue.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:18:15):
All right. I just sent it out. That one just has, it has the self defense right before the plea of not guilty, that instruction. All right, if that looks good to everybody then we'll go ahead and I'll print them and have the copies for everyone to read.
Defense (07:18:38):
Okay.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:18:39):
Again, is anybody asking me to wait till the morning? Or are we good to go ahead and print them?
Defense (07:18:47):
I was fine with them. Once we added that instruction, I was fine.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:18:52):
Okay. All right. Y'all got your emails?
Defense (07:18:55):
Yes.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:18:56):
All right. Anything else we need to address?
Mr. Lewis (07:18:59):
No, ma'am.
Judge Alicia Washington (07:19:00):
All right. See you tomorrow morning at 8:45. We'll walk them in, I'll start instructions. We'll do the closings, final instructions, deliberation.
